Starter sometimes fails to engage

[ChickenPinz]

Sometime the starter will spin and not engage. Could be as often as 50% of the time, but nearly always engages on second press of the starter button. Always makes a "clunk" when the starter spins down after a failed-engagement start attempt.

I lubed it as best I could when I had the transmission out, but that didn't seem to make a difference. I don't see any pattern correlated with warm versus cold.

Suggestions? Is it going to strand me sometime, or just continue to be annoying forever?

Truck has done this for a long time, and it's unclear if it's getting worse or not.

[rmel]

Hmmm, Spins but no engagement, might be just a fair amount of wear
on the fork lever so there's enough slop in the system that the motor
contacts engage but there's not enough travel to the ring gear. Might
need a rebuild on your starter. I am assuming your ring gear is OK
as you probably inspected that when the tranie was out.

[ChickenPinz]

Yes, ring gear seems fine. Inspected it when I had the flywheel off.
Starter teeth also looked fine at the time, and was advised that it maybe just needed lubrication.
And it doesn't seem to be a ring-gear issue in that the crankshaft doesn't change position between the no-engage cycle and the subsequent engage cycle.

Hopefully someone else has experienced these same symptoms and can advise on what did or did not work for them, but yes, if not, then all I can do is pull the starter and inspect it.

thx and TIA

[rmel]

BTW I did replace my Starter in the 710 with the gear reduction version from EI.
Definitely a step up in starters.

The old starter was rebuilt locally as a spare. They were able to source the
parts necessary to rebuild it. A bit of a messy shop but they know what they
are doing.

San Jose Generator & Starter
40 San Jose Ave San Jose, CA 95125
(408) 293-2200

[ChickenPinz]

Thanks for the tip on a starter shop! Next step is to get it pulled out...

[Hotzenplotz]

btw, there are two versions of the starter

the left one is V2

they obviously require different spare parts

btw both versions are currently available with 20% discount at puch.at

https://www.puch.at/de/produkte-&-ersat ... -vers.-ii/

[hatzlibutzli]

The rubber plate that holds the starter in place tends to loose its shape after some 40 years ...sometimes there are tears as well. That causes mis-engagegement. So, if you remove the starter take a look at that plate.
No 2 on this scematic: [urlhttps://www.puch.at/de/produkte-&-ersatzteile/p ... halterung/][/url]

Regards ... Simon

[ChickenPinz]

Are there any best practices or tips folks would recommend for pulling the starter, ones that aren't obvious?

[ChickenPinz]

Starter is out and on the bench. Tips for anyone else removing a starter:
- Disconnect battery (just to be safe)
- Remove engine oil dipstick assembly (two bolts), and insert loose a 3/8in bolt into the hole as a cover to keep debris out.
- Get the top nut off with a 19mm crow's foot wrench. It'll be slow, but it'll get the job done. I have a low-profile socket with u-joint on order I'll try for re-installation. https://a.co/d/61XBQTC
- Then remove lower nut and drop the starter out the bottom by tipping its rear up after sliding free of the two mounting studs.

Bench testing was done using the pinz battery stack. 80A inrush current, and 30A running current -- does anyone know if that's typical? Mine is Rev1 (the longer one) starter.

Solenoid seems to drive reliable, with no failures noted after a dozen or so cycles. Even on a 10A-current-limited power supply, the solenoid engages (but starter doesn't spin due to insufficient current and a drop to about 2.5V at 10A). Seems to engage fine on the dual-battery stack of the truck.

No obvious signs of issues on the drive teeth, ring gear teeth, or the rubber mount. Pictures attached for more expert eyes.

Is the current typical? The manual calls out 42A, so mine is a bit lower, but no range is specified. Ideas for next steps?

[ChickenPinz]

Capture.PNG (18.65 KiB) Viewed 977 times

[pcolette]

Sorry, I was away for a few days, but one hint I found helpful was to remove the steel panel in the rear of the passenger side front wheel well to gain a bit more access. The panel has I recall 2 bolts that screw into captive nuts toward the rear and 2 more bolts along the front edge that clamp another strip of steel in place. If I can find a photo I will post. (Part # 7111611302-95, Group 21-10-27)

Paul

[eric1355]

Google translate:
If the starter motor starts but does not drive the engine
we can conclude that the relay is working properly
it's probably the starter pawls that are faulty photo below
it's the same system as ratchet tools or bicycle rear sprockets
video https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&
Eric

original
Bonjour
Si le démarreur se lance et n'entraine pas le moteur
on peut en conclure que le relais fonctionne correctement
c'est certainement les cliquets du lanceur qui sont défectueux photo ci dessous
c est le même système que les outils à cliquet ou les pignons arrière de vélo
video https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=YDx4G7GjuU4
Eric

[ChickenPinz]

After listening to the group and reading the archives, it seems the likely culprit is the Bendix drive (one-way clutch).

The new Bendix (for my v1 starter) seems to be not available (from SAV), and is about $200. Given that, I'm down the path of a new starter when balancing time, effort, and reliability.

Order placed for the fancy gear-drive starter all y'all are raving about: EI gear-reduction starter

[eric1355]

Google translate:

if you want to repair it and keep it as a spare
this could be the one:
The diameters and number of teeth are indicated in the description.
and it's not too expensive!
https://www.condensateur-web.fr/lanceur ... 51558.html
I've never ordered from them, so make sure they're reliable.
or use the reference number to find one from a well-known supplier

Eric


Original

si tu veut le réparer pour le garder en réserve
c'est peut être celui là :
Les dimension diamètres et nombre de dents sont indiquées dans la description
de plus il n'est pas trop cher!
https://www.condensateur-web.fr/lanceur ... 51558.html
je n'ai jamais commandé chez eux assure toi qu'ils soient fiable
ou a partir de la référence en trouver un chez un fournisseur connus

Eric

[ChickenPinz]

Alas, no joy with the new EI gear-reduction starter. The lower nut & washer won't fit on when the starter is in place and tight against the mount.

I've opened a ticket with EI (Scott), and am awaiting a reply.

Ideas?