Slow Warm Engine Cranking/Start

[ElectraPinz]

I think I have reviewed all the old posts on this subject and I am still baffled. So far, I have:

1. Checked batteries (often) – Ret Tops - show good cranking power,
2. Installed rebuilt starter
3. Installed EI civilian ignition conversion (engine runs much better, smoother, more lugging power, less shifting required! Really worth the time and money!)
4. Installed 1/0 cable from battery to starter
5. Installed 2/0 cable from starter to ground

The new battery cables made a big difference. Now, I can crank much longer before the battery draws down.

The specific issue is when the engine is warm, summer or winter. When the engine is cold, it fires right up – like almost instantaneously. I can push it or coast down a hill and it will start right up. But when the engine has been running, it takes 10 to 20 revolutions of cranking at full throttle for it to finally slowly start up. If I use any choke (“Starter”), I’m dead in the water. If it doesn’t start up, the battery will eventually draw down to the point where it won’t crank – hence the importance of the new cables.

This just doesn’t seem right. It seems as if when the starter has to crank the engine, it does so very slowly; I’ve never had a vehicle that cranked so slowly.

This situation is so persistent that I carry a small generator set and battery charger with me all the time. When I put the (12v) charger on one of the batteries, the starter cranks faster, and the engine starts quickly, even when I have “run the batteries down.”

What really baffles me is that I don’t need to touch the accelerator for a cold start and barely for a “downhill coast” start (even with warm engine), but I seem to need full throttle for a warm start with the starter motor, and then the engine acts as if it is barely getting enough gas – it starts up very slowly.

So, does anyone have any ideas as to where I go from here?

What about the IE gear reduction starter? Nothing on this forum about that for some time now. Does is crank the engine faster? I’ve read that it has more power – if so, how would that relate to my problem?

Sorry for the long post, but I wanted to give a full description of the symptoms.

Thanks for your help.

Ben

[audiocontr]

One bad battery?

The temperature is what surprises me so maybe its combination of a few things - old starter and a weak battery dropping voltage too quickly

[McCall Pinz]

I had a set of red tops that went bad from repeated draining and charging. They showed correct voltage when charging them, but had no amps when load tested at NAPA. Usually the rear one goes bad, but have them test both.

[ElectraPinz]

Thanks for the comments.

At this point, I'm not suspecting the batteries. I have had them load tested two or three times in the past year at different places, and they have tested above spec.

[undysworld]

Were you having this problem at the time the batteries were tested?

Having a single battery suddenly die is not a real uncommon problem, even during storage. The fact that you jump only one and it works sounds suspicious. A question: When you jump a single battery, will it work with either battery? Or must you always jump a particular battery? If it's always the same battery, I'd get that one tested.

You may have multiple problems, but this sounds a bit like a bad battery.

[edzz]

The specific issue is when the engine is warm, summer or winter. When the engine is cold, it fires right up – like almost instantaneously. Ben

If I use any choke (“Starter”), I’m dead in the water. Ben

What really baffles me is that I don’t need to touch the accelerator for a cold start and barely for a “downhill coast” start (even with warm engine), but I seem to need full throttle for a warm start with the starter motor, and then the engine acts as if it is barely getting enough gas – it starts up very slowly. Ben

You are likely seeing a fair amount of black exhaust smoke on start up.

Sounds like a carburetion issue to me. Not needing choke on cold start implies the carburetion is setup rich. Warm start needing the throttle to be held open is also an indication it’s rich.

To clear a flooded engine it is common practice to hold the gas pedal to the floor while cranking to clear excess fuel from the engine, when it finally fires up it will likely start first on one or two cylinders to a stuttering start before all four cylinders catch.

[ElectraPinz]

Hi Ed

Thanks for the comments - you may be on to something. I had thought of possible rich fuel mixture (requiring full throttle on warm start-up) - "hold the gas pedal to the floor while cranking to clear excess fuel from the engine, when it finally fires up it will likely start first on one or two cylinders to a stuttering start before all four cylinders catch" is exactly like what is happening.

But to clarify, I DO NEED THE CHOKE FOR COLD ENGINE START. Using the choke as prescribed, the engine fires right up. Using the choke when the engine is warm makes it virtually impossible to start.

This morning - 29 degrees - cranked very slow (I'm thinking temp and 20W50 oil), but fired right away then sputtered - just a slight white/blue tinge to exhaust - after three tries, I nursed the accelerator and it started right up - clear exhaust, no black smoke. I ran it for a half hour then let it sit. On restart, I smelled fuel odor and had to use full throttle to start it. - but clear exhaust.

Is it possible that residual pressure from the fuel pump (new last Spring) is causing fuel to leak to/through the carbs and cause the flooding, but over time dissipates? Doesn't seem plausible, but heck what do I know?

Does that alter anybody's thinking?

Thanks again,

Ben

[Pinzgauer Pete]

Cranking speed cn be attributed to 3 things weak or internally shorted batteries, poor wiring connections or wiring that has a high resistance(internally corroded) or a starter that is worn and needs attention. You need to address those issues first..then move on to the carbs if the pinz now cranks like crazy but dosent start easily. Check fuel delivery, hoses for cracking (sucking air)and then carb float level, and carb gaskets for tightness...

[ElectraPinz]

Hi Pete

Thanks for the comments. Re cranking speed, that is why I changed cables and starter (see first post in this thread). I have not replaced the ground strap for the ground switch or solenoid. Could that possibly be an issue?

I keep going back to the batteries, but every time I get them load-tested, they check out better than spec.

I have also installed a new fuel pump and all new fuel lines.

My Pinz has never cranked "like crazy."

Ben

[edward]

Do you have an automatic (as opposed to manual) battery charger with cranking amp ability that you could connect to your battery, then try starting? The charger would extra to your battery and if it cranked "normal", at least that would eliminate the battery. Sounds like it's weak to me, even though tests ok when put under tests.
Here is the one I own, works well http://tinyurl.com/3nu2w4p
edit: I am trying to recall a thread I read on here awhile back (been doing a lot of reading!) and thought I saw someone mention a similar problem - and I don't know Pinz' real well (but learning!) and thought there was a post that said something about cleaning out a pipe coming off the engine or something, that was keeping the original posters pinz from running right, both starting and motoring along. Although I can't recall what the fix was or who said it...but maybe that rings a bell. And I could be way off, too. Just trying' to help
Edward

[lindenengineering]

Question
Who rebuilt the starter?--Was the armature checked for insulation on a growler?

If you have Optimas --an AGM battery in ther words, they don't respond to normal style battery style charging so you need an AGM compatible charger or you can do this:-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Slqd73ZO ... re=related

Dennis
lindenengineering & zedcars

[PinzVair]

I'm not versed in Pinz engines... I work a lot on air cooled Corvair boxer engines.

Your symptoms seem to indicate one of two likely possibilities.

Rich mixture (which appears to "not" be the case with the light smoke... however this can be deceptive and you don't ever really know without a good F/A mix gauge)

Vapor lock. A common problem with stock air cooled corvair engines. The heat of the engine will "boil" the gas in the lines when you shutdown hot after a drive. When you go to start it back up the stock diaphragm style pump can't pull liquid gas through the pressurized lines.

Often times an electric fuel pump will solve this (again Corvair experience).

[ElectraPinz]

I've been off-line for several days, but just pulled the following link from another thread:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63JgH5XoCMc

On a good day, my pinz cranks at about half that speed.

Batteries continue to check out OK, chargers works great, I've double-checked wiring and the heavier guage is obviously doing what it's supposed to.

So I'm about convinced that this is a combination of bad starter and rich fuel mixture. Next week I will have a chance to tinker with the fuel mixture and overall carb situation, and will report how that turns out.

In the meantime, can anyone give me some feedback about the Expedition Imports gear reduction starter. I'm thinking that if I have to do something with starter, that might be the best way to go.

Thanks,

Ben

[Jim LaGuardia]

You will like the gear reduction starter, lighter, more efficient.

[ElectraPinz]

Since I started this thread, the ol' Pinz has purred like a kitten, except for slow hard warm engine start - until last Monday. Went to town and the weather was nasty - rain/snow/slush and lots of it. In the way out of town, the engine started to miss and sputter seriously. I limped into a gas station, filled up with hi-test, then limped to Auto-Zone and poured a can of Seafoam into the gas tank. No change, except when I got about 5 miles out of town, everything cleared up and I made it home just fine.

Tuesday, engine wouldn't start - drew the batteries down. So I recharged overnight, checked carbs (seem OK), fuel flow (looks OK).

Wednesday, it started and ran smooth as silk (idle) for 20-30 minutes, and then petered out and died. Couldn't get it restarted.

Today, I changed the fuel filter and checked coil voltage. With the engine not running and ignition & ground switches on, the + to ground voltage read 10.1. Having read in some post that it should be double that, I figured the problem must be the 4500 rpm module. So I shunted the middle terminals on the connecter. Voltage reading was 9.8 volts. Tried to start it anyway, and after getting fuel replenished (from filter replacement), it fired up for a few seconds and then petered out. I was goosing the throttle, and the engine responded by sputtering, mild backfire and then death - acted just like the description in another post about what happens when the 4500 rpm module starts limiting voltage to the coil.

So now, can anyone confirm what the coil voltage should be, and if that's my problem, where do I look (other than 4500 rpm module) for the culprit?

Thanks in advance for your help.

Ben