Question about Fuel Injection

[krick3tt]

For those that have it:

Have you noticed increased/reasonable performance boost since install?
Average cost for throttle body injection that just replaces the carbs.
How often does it need/require tuning or is it once and done?

I am thinking FI vs engine upgrade to 2.7 since there may not be a marked improvement at 5,000 to 10,000 feet.

If you have the FI did you also add the SSI or if not FI does the SSI make much difference?

Any help in this will be greatly appreciated.
Morris

[Jimm391730]

I had the 2.7l conversion (with Jim's "torque" cam) a year before EFI was installed. I found no improvement in performance with EFI (after all, the correct amount of fuel is the correct amount, regardless of whether it comes from an injector or a carburetor). But EFI made a great improvement in starting and torque off idle when cold (so in that sense, it had a great improvement in performance when the engine was in the 30F range).

The EFI system I got from Engine Management Systems (EMS) that Jim uses includes distributorless ignition - not quite the same as the three spark SSI system, but by using the same EMS computer I can change the timing map with both engine rpm and vacuum. The EFI system also adjusts for altitude so while the engine power does drop at high altitudes, the fuel to air ratio stays correct regardless of the height.

While I've tweaked my EFI fuel and timing maps over the years as I gradually learn more about how and why things should be, and what it takes to run better and better, I have not yet needed to "fix" or change an adjustment or component over time that drifted, failed, or died -- EFI is MUCH more dependable than carbs (assuming no EMPs happen anytime soon!).

To do it right, EFI really needs a proper in-tank pump. Yes, external pumps work but are more likely to suffer vapor lock (been there, don't want to do that again). At the time my carbs were so shot I was contemplating $1500 per carb (for brand new) so the slight additional cost for EFI was acceptable, plus I wanted to learn and have the opportunity to "play" with it. I'm glad I did it on my 712W, but I'm still happy with the carbs in our 710M. I'll do EFI on it, too, when I am forced to do so by either the cost to repair/replace the carbs or finally get frustrated by their maintenance.

[audiocontr]

I wonder how much of that off the line torque and starting boost is from the change of ignition vs fuel injection? Many of us found the same with PinziSSI and stock carbs.

[krick3tt]

This variety of possible directions is why it is so confusing to me. What to do and where to spend the bucks to get a little better performance... or just leave it alone and deal with the fact that it is a slow, albeit great off road machine.

Every time I take a road trip and end up going 20 MPH up hills on roads with a 75 MPH speed limit it is a bit frustrating. Once I am where I want to go the machine does so well off road that I am rocked by the way it performs. The groups I am in evolved with know that I will have to leave a day ahead of everyone to get to the destination. No way I can keep up with them on road. Pride versus practicality.

Today is just a bit of rant from an old man. I am using this forum to air out my thoughts.

I did talk with a mechanic here in Denver that works on Mogs and G wagons that said there is a turbo made for petrol engines that will give me a bit of zip.
Not sure...now there is another direction to add to the mix. Do I do a 2.7 upgrade, SSI with carbs, FI with SSI, Turbo, change out to a diesel for better milage... and the possibilities just keep going. Not to mention there is a factor of limited funds.

edit:
Oh yeah, one other thing that concerns me is that this vehicle is designed to have components mated for a 90 HP engine and changing out the power plant might cause extra stress on the drive train and that will just lead me down a very expensive hole.

[63rover]

I find the Pinzgauer quite quick when compared to my 63 diesel Land Rover. It topped out at 40 before the new diffs (does 50 now on the level). Honestly it is what it is. If you tweak the engine you will inevitably shorten its longevity. Consider the Jag v12. It can be set up to provide great fun for 100+ thousand miles or as a white knuckle rocket for 24 hrs at Le Mans after which it needs a rebuild or wrecking yard. Remember this vehicle was purpose built for military budgets (greater than ours) and set up to what the engineers thought was the optimal balance of reliability and performance. If you set it up for the Dakar be willing to consider it disposable afterwards.

If you want to get there quicker you could trailer it or settle for poorer off road performance in a modified civilian grocery getter.

As a fellow older guy I like leaving earlier, taking the back roads and stopping for coffees regularly. The young fellows can laugh all they want on the road but if they laugh too much I won't pull them out when they bog down and bury it to the limit of their excuse for ground clearance. I'll call it coffee time beside the trail, with entertainment, as I watch them struggle.

[krick3tt]

63rover,

...and those that put in their thoughts...thanks for the viewpoints.
I think I would also rather enjoy watching the younger guys while I have a coffee in the shade, but with a bit of Irish at the end of the trail. Leaving early is far more relaxing and as I am retired i can also leave on Tuesday before the working crowd fills the hi-way for a weekend of maniacs on parade.

I was interested in what others might have done (or not done) to their vehicles for possible improvements. I will more likely tinker with what I have and replace parts as they fall off or be in need of replacement. Doubt I will go to a lesser vehicle just to get there faster.

I still get questions about the pinz wherever I go. So many folks think it is a really cool vehicle.

[63rover]

Well said!

To quote that wise philosopher of our time and fellow Pinzgauer owner, Clint Eastwood, "A man has to know his limitations".

[TechMOGogy]

Well said!

To quote that wise philosopher of our time and fellow Pinzgauer owner, Clint Eastwood, "A man has to know his limitations".

Clint Eastwood owns a Pinz
I have had a bunch of beer so you may have got me on this one

[krick3tt]

I also was not aware of Mr. Eastwood's love of pinzies.

edit: Looked up his bio...not a word about cars, any cars.

[63rover]

I thought I heard that but it may be wrong. As Farley Mowatt put it I don't let the facts get in the way of a good story.

[McCall Pinz]

Hi Krick3tt,
Fwiw, I've been toying with this for a while too and the simplified answer I've received from Jim and others is that the stock cam is a problem and the best way to make Hp is with the 2.7l upgrade and a new cam. Efi and ssi help with the drive ability, but don't change the fundamental issues of the cam's lift and duration, compression, and displacement. For us running around above 5k feet the low hp is even worse.

[audiocontr]

Where within your engine pwerband do you spend the majority of your driving?

Some of us shift early.

Some of us rev to 4k every shift

Some of us pull a lot of weight

Some of us care about highway driving


I shift early and spend more time in standard stop and go traffic than off road scenarios. I would enjoy more torque in everyday driving, lower in the revs, where I'd probably enjoy the performance of a very small supercharger. This could keep me within the max power specs, but spread it out across a wider power band.

[krick3tt]

Thanks for your example.

I spend the majority of my driving...

revving to 32K almost every shift (have RPM gage), sometimes by sound like when I drove Vw van

Rarely pull lots of weight, occasionally small trailer about 600 to 800 pounds. Mostly loaded with camping gear and top out just over 5000 pounds for the vehicle.

Often highway driving to get off road and local streets at about 25 to 45 mph, rarely above 50 on highway (slower going up mountains, 25). 31 inch tires, stock rims.

I spend more time in standard stop and go traffic than off road scenarios. I would enjoy more torque in everyday driving, lower in the revs, where I'd probably enjoy the performance of a very small supercharger. I have heard they were available for gas engines.
Need power in the mountains above 6000 ft to 11000 feet to get to Moab and Utah desert.