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 Cannot change into gears, only with engine off ??? 
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Joined: Mon Aug 10, 2009 11:13 pm
Posts: 1264
Location: Coeur d'Alene, ID
Post Re: Cannot change into gears, only with engine off ???
Sounds like its time to pull the clutch out and clean things up. IIRC in the past Jim has recommended replacing the clutch disk, may want to replace the throw-out bearing and pilot bushing if you decide to order parts. not a hard or time consuming job on a Pinz and just basic tools needed.

http://real4x4forums.com/PinzgauerBBS/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=8783&hilit=stuck+clutch

http://real4x4forums.com/PinzgauerBBS/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=5902&p=43952&hilit=stuck+clutch#p43952

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Ed
75 710K (sold)
2006 2WD Ural Patrol (sold)
1969 2WD Rokon Trailbreaker
A few Honda Trail 90's

Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt.


Sun Jul 16, 2017 8:11 pm
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Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2007 11:58 am
Posts: 122
Location: Eindhoven, Netherlands
Post Re: Cannot change into gears, only with engine off ???
In the first place, thanks all you guys for answering my post.
I realise that there were earlier posts, but it needs the right combination of words to get to the good relevant posts (ie clutch+stuck, clutch+replacement) and when you're panicking about big jobs coming up and all the expected problems, you just throw out a help-line...
Anyway after really reading a ton of posts (+ print out), I now believe that the job is do-able, as long as you record all and just get your head around it.

I will first get the tranny off and then the clutch cover, to see if I can pry clutch disk loose, then I will look at the disk. I hope it'll be allright, but will buy a new one if needed.
I bought my Pinz with a refurbished engine, starter-motor etc, so hope he also put a new disk in and I have only driven 3000 miles or so with it... just left it too long doing nothing, busy busy

I will let you know how I got on, in the meantime bless you all for helping me !

Best regards,

Jules

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Pinz of rock - 710M / 1975 (Austrian Army)


Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:56 am
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Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2010 12:46 pm
Posts: 748
Location: Crystal Beach ON CAN
Post Re: Cannot change into gears, only with engine off ???
This happened to me once. I took the tranny out and cleaned it up. Never happened again. Good luck.

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1972 710m


Mon Jul 17, 2017 5:16 am
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Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2007 11:58 am
Posts: 122
Location: Eindhoven, Netherlands
Post Re: Cannot change into gears, only with engine off ???
Hi Undysworld,

You wrote "Do you own the service manuals? If not, we can give you info on pulling it out. ".
Well I have the pdf of the the 'Pinzgauer Repair manual for models 710 and 712' (343 pages), that I downloaded a long time ago from "Swiss All-Terrain" at "swissATV.com", not existing anymore...
Is that the same manual you are talking about ?, I am not sure how many exist; ie maintenance manual, repair manual, service manual...

I do have a book with all the parts listed, with exploded views, about a 1000 pages or so. Got that from the guy I bought the Pinz from. It's in German, but I can read that (being Dutch), but it will show you how things fit together and parts numbers, but nothing else

Appreciate your comments

Best regards,
Jules.

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Pinz of rock - 710M / 1975 (Austrian Army)


Tue Jul 18, 2017 2:40 am
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Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2007 11:58 am
Posts: 122
Location: Eindhoven, Netherlands
Post Re: Cannot change into gears, only with engine off ???
Just another point...
I just read in Pinzgauer technical old (july 16, 2006) at 'Clutch problem:
M. Wehrman: "When I replaced the clutch in my K I used the pilot tool that came with the Auto-zone kit,only thing I had to do is wrap the end with a few turns of aluminum tape to match the Pinz pilot brng. EZY!! Mark"
Jim LaGuardia:"For an alignment tool , the splines are the same as GM 10 spline , MBZ(early 4sp),BMW 733i, or Toyota Landcruiser(60's to late 70's)"
Buzz: "On the tools, I actually own an original Swiss clutch disc centering pin. It came in a case of Swiss shop tools that I bought with my truck three years ago..."
Manual: see attched; yellowed out.

If I pull off the clutch disk, in order to pry off the clutch-disk from the flywheel and later on re-assemble; do I need a centering tool as mentioned above and as in the manual ?
In all the other posts about taking off the clutch-disk, it never mentions this, so that is why I thought it was easy with just simple tools... Probably I need to buy this part
I can just imagine if that disk was not mounted properly, even though it fits to the nut-bolts and holes when bolting back on, it would wobble and not be too good at high rpm (or any rpm)

Appreciate your comments

Best regards,

Jules


Attachments:
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Pinz of rock - 710M / 1975 (Austrian Army)
Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:10 am
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Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2004 7:08 am
Posts: 1702
Location: Blue Mounds, WI
Post Re: Cannot change into gears, only with engine off ???
Hi Jules,

Yes, there are three manuals: Parts, Repair, and Operators, if I recall correctly. The picture you posted leads me to believe that you have them in digital form.

Yes, you do need the clutch alignment tool to reassemble the clutch disc in the proper location to allow the transmission shaft to slide through. I have the actual input shaft from a destroyed transmission that I use. As M Wehrman has written, some alignment tools may fit the clutch splines but still be too small to fit the pilot bearing, and sometimes wrapping it with tape will give a good enough fit to work. Jim LaGuardia identified some vehicles that have the same spline setup, and I'd think that you could purchase the alignment tool for one of them from a local parts supplier.

If you do not align the clutch disc as you assemble things, the transmission input shaft will not be able to slide through the clutch disc and into the pilot bearing, so you will be unable to install the transmission like this.

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Tue Jul 18, 2017 5:03 am
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Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2007 11:58 am
Posts: 122
Location: Eindhoven, Netherlands
Post Re: Cannot change into gears, only with engine off ???
Hi Undysworld,

Great ! thanks a lot, I'll be roving for a clutch alignment tool first...
Thanks for all the info, great help !

Best regards,

Jules

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Pinz of rock - 710M / 1975 (Austrian Army)


Tue Jul 18, 2017 5:45 am
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Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2004 9:36 pm
Posts: 1357
Location: Ca. or lost in South West USA
Post Re: Cannot change into gears, only with engine off ???
The good news is that this is a very easy to do, relative to most vehicles. The tranny is small and light and you can access it easily. It's much easier to get back into place than any other one I've done, mainly due to that rear hatch access. Just be patient when getting it aligned and trying to push it back onto the housing. Another hand will help a lot on reassembly.

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Tue Jul 18, 2017 4:06 pm
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Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2010 12:46 pm
Posts: 748
Location: Crystal Beach ON CAN
Post Re: Cannot change into gears, only with engine off ???
I believe I got my alignment tool from SAV for $10 or something like that.

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1972 710m


Wed Jul 19, 2017 4:35 am
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Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2007 11:58 am
Posts: 122
Location: Eindhoven, Netherlands
Post Re: Cannot change into gears, only with engine off ???
I just ordered one GM10 spline from Ebay $6.95 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Clutch-Alignment-Tool-GM10-1-1-8-10-Teeth-GMC-Chevrolet-Pontiac-/262723454853?hash=item3d2b89c785:g:5n8AAOSwcLxYLh-V&vxp=mtr), mind you, it cost $25 to send it to Holland, where I absolutely could not find one, tried all afternoon ( I am a pensioner...)

Thanks Vince for the reassembly advice. It really is reassuring when people tell these things. At the start of the problem it is just like a big black hole you need to take care of, with only uncertainties and a fear of being really stuck, but after reading posts and getting encouring posts, even a non-mechanic like me feels he could do it. I do have a mechanical sense, so if you read enough posts, you get a sense of how simple it actually is... except for when you're trying to get that one screw in, where it does not line up.

I now have to wait for the spline to arrive and will get stuck into it.
I will update you with the progress !

Best regards,

Jules

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Pinz of rock - 710M / 1975 (Austrian Army)


Wed Jul 19, 2017 6:24 am
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Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2007 11:58 am
Posts: 122
Location: Eindhoven, Netherlands
Post Re: Cannot change into gears, only with engine off ???
Just rechecked the SAV one: SAV2725 = $9.50. Probably would have been a better choice, but they are pretty expensive mailing things to Holland ($40 or more) I have bought lots of stuff there, because either it was too expensive in europe (www.puch.at) or just plain not available. Alas, c'est la vie (Chuck Berry)

Bless all your cotton socks !

Jules

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Pinz of rock - 710M / 1975 (Austrian Army)


Wed Jul 19, 2017 6:31 am
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Joined: Fri May 01, 2009 12:30 pm
Posts: 1707
Location: Detroit Motor City
Post Re: Cannot change into gears, only with engine off ???
JNijst wrote:

Bless all your cotton socks !




I'm so using this today

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Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:28 am
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Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2004 9:58 pm
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Location: Idyllwild, CA
Post Re: Cannot change into gears, only with engine off ???
Hi Jules, so the process goes like this:
Remove the tranny cover plate from the bed of the truck body.
Remove the clutch cover plate, and pull the link pin (between the slave cylinder and the clutch fork) out by hand. Leave the clutch slave in place. Remove the shifter linkage.
Remove the driveshaft from the end of the tranny. Best if you mark the alignment of the end of the shaft and tranny, also mark the two halves of the shaft so they can go back together in the same orientation.
Remove the bellhousing bolts and pull the tranny backwards about 8-10cm and then lower it.
Now you see the pressure plate bolted to the flywheel, with the clutch disk squeezed between them (squeezed by the springs of the pressure plate). Before you remove the pressure plate from the flywheel, look into the center where the tranny shaft fits. You can see that the clutch disk splines are centered around the pilot bearing hole. This is what you will need to re-align by using the alignment tool. Remove the pressure plate bolts and it and the clutch plate should come loose, except that in your case the clutch plate is stuck to either the pressure plate or the flywheel. In either case, carefully pry the stuck surfaces apart. The pressure plate and flywheel area that contact the clutch disk should be cleaned of any rust (and any cleaning solvents).
If the clutch disk seems to have enough "meat" of wear surface then it can probably go back in the truck. If the pressure plate has any big scratches or spring fingers that are not even with the rest then it should be replaced. As easy as it is to remove the tranny to get to the clutch, it is even easier to NOT have to do it again. Parts are not that expensive, so it is common to just replace all: Pressure plate, Clutch disk, Throw-out bearing (on the fork arms), and Pilot bearing (in the center of the flywheel) so as to not have to do this process again any time soon.
Replacement is almost the reverse:
First, put the clutch disk on the inside of the pressure plate and put the alignment tool through the back of the pressure plate and through the clutch disk splines. As you put this assembly up against the flywheel, get the alignment tool centered in the pilot bearing. Then tighten all the pressure plate to flywheel bolts which will clamp the clutch disk. It will be centered because of the alignment tool (I have heard of people using a piece of broom stick handle when nothing else was available). Pull the alignment tool from the assembly and re-mount the tranny and the rest of the linkages.
Done!

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Jim M.
712W and 710M


Fri Jul 21, 2017 7:29 pm
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Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2007 11:58 am
Posts: 122
Location: Eindhoven, Netherlands
Post Re: Cannot change into gears, only with engine off ???
Thanks Jimm,

Reading it like this it seems simple and possible. I will report on my progress, once I receive the clutch alignment tool.
Thanks again for explaining it to me so clearly.

Best regards,

Jules

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Pinz of rock - 710M / 1975 (Austrian Army)


Sat Jul 22, 2017 7:47 am
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Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2007 11:58 am
Posts: 122
Location: Eindhoven, Netherlands
Post Re: Cannot change into gears, only with engine off ???
Well Gents, the job is done !!!

It went all OK, the Pinz is running and shifting gears and took lots of pictures. I would like to make a "Technical Article" like Sound Control by Vince, so I'll start a new 'reply' in this index and see if it meets the required standard.

Thanks all for their support and encouragements, as that is great news for other non-mechanics, who can see how seemingly complicated problems are easier to solve than expected, sometimes ...

Best regards,

Jules

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Pinz of rock - 710M / 1975 (Austrian Army)


Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:57 am
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