Oil additive to reduce gear friction - thoughts

Diffs, axles, lockers, transmissions, portals, that kind of thing.
steyr92
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Re: Oil additive to reduce gear friction - thoughts

Post by steyr92 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:35 pm

as said i am fine with the lm gear oil additive product from other forums the mathy t or wagner micro ceramic is highly recommended but not tested on my own :roll:
but i have a another question. after reading several posts in this forum i still dont understand why many are going up to 140 weight oil when the portals were designed for 80 or 90 ?
only because of noise?
greets

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rmel
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Re: Oil additive to reduce gear friction - thoughts

Post by rmel » Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:56 pm

Well there's mono-grade and multi-grade viscosity gear oils.

If your using mon-grade, then it would make sense to pick a
viscosity based on the operating conditions, e.g. higher viscosity
for high temperature conditions e.g. higher than 90.

But if the conditions are diverse better off using a multi-grade
like a 80W-90, which means the viscosity at low temp is 80, and
90 at high temp. I have seen products 85W-140, again it's a
multi-grade so cold is the lower viscosity at 85.
Puller: 71' 710K 2.7L EFI aka Mozo
Follower: Sankey MK 3, 3/4 Tonne
Rescue Pinz: 73' 712M

Driver: Ron // KO0Q

pinzi
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Re: Oil additive to reduce gear friction - thoughts

Post by pinzi » Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:36 am

Well W80/140 starts the same Like the W80/90 ....at 80 but it can deal with a higher temp. 140 to 90 .
I have used this in my 710m , 710k and the 716...i even have this in my 74 haflinger.
Never had anny problems and yes to me it helps a bit to have them a bit less noisy, one other reason is the hi-lo case from the 716....it was original disingned to have a internal oil pump, but they never built it That way....they even had diferent versions in the td hi/lo cases some had plates in side to direct the upspitting oil to the bearings becouse they had problems lubricating them....especial when driving long distance at high (90km/u) for long....so i think using the 80-140 makes sense.
off-road until i die

Brady 712k
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Re: Oil additive to reduce gear friction - thoughts

Post by Brady 712k » Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:06 am

I've been using Valvoline VR1 racing oil 20W50 because it has added zinc and states that on the bottle.
Here is the write up from Valvoline on this oil....


MOTOR OIL & OTHER PRODUCT FAQ
Whether you have questions pertaining to motor oil performance, synthetic oils or how to recycle your used oil, you can get the answers you’re looking for below. First, narrow the options down by choosing the closest-related category to your question.

RACING OIL FAQ
What are the benefits of using racing oil versus regular passenger car oil?

The Valvoline VR1 Racing and other racing oils not intended for passenger vehicles contain additional additives for increased horsepower and reduced friction on metal parts, provide extra wear protection for high compression/higher horsepower engines, and include fewer detergents than regular conventional motor oils.

What is motor oil with zinc?

The anti-wear additive simply referred to as zinc by most car enthusiasts is actually short for Zinc Dialkyl Dithiophosphates or ZDDP. Its primary role is to prevent metal-to-metal contact between engine parts by forming a protective film. Despite being referred to as zinc, ZDDP also contains phosphorus, which helps to perform the anti-wear function in the motor oil.

Why are zinc/phosphorus levels in motor oil lower in today’s motor oils?

With ever increasing limits on emissions, automobile manufacturers have tightened emission control systems on newer vehicles. This is one of several factors considered when the American Petroleum Institute (API) sets standards for motor oil with zinc. The current API standard is SN, which replaced the previous SM classification. Because phosphorus can poison a vehicle's emission system, the level of zinc is lower for current motor oil. Valvoline uses a new type of zinc/phosphorus that maintains the prior level of wear protection of the engine while reducing the impact on the emission system.

What is the controversy surrounding the amount of zinc in motor oil?

The controversy exists as a result of many hands-on car enthusiasts and engine experts belief that lower levels of zinc in API SN and SM motor oils can cause excessive wear in older style push-rod and flat-tappet engines. They hold this belief despite the fact that all new motor oil classifications are intended to be backward compatible.

What solutions does Valvoline offer to the zinc issue?

Valvoline offers two solutions to the zinc issue:

Valvoline VR1 Racing Oil: Contains 75% higher zinc than SN or SM motor oil with a balanced additive package designed to work in both racing and traditional applications. Valvoline provides this product in both multi and mono viscosity grades: 20w50, straight 50, 10w30, straight 30, straight 40 and straight 60.
Longer-Lasting Zinc/Phosphorus: Valvoline uses an advanced zinc/phosphorus additive that keeps higher levels of phosphorus in the motor oil where it protects the engine instead of poisoning the catalytic converter.
Which oil has more zinc/ZDDP: VR1 or Not Street Legal racing oil?

Valvoline VR1 Racing Oil contains .13 percent zinc and .12 percent phosphorus compared to the Valvoline "Not Street Legal" Racing Oil, which contains .14 percent zinc and .13 percent phosphorus.

Will an additive boost the zinc level?

Keep in mind that zinc additives are corrosive above certain levels and can harm your engine. Valvoline doesn’t recommend using third-party additives to boost the zinc level. If higher zinc levels are required for your engine, we recommend using Valvoline VR-1, and always remember to consult your vehicle’s owner’s manual.

Is VR1 conventional oil synthetic or a blend?

Valvoline VR1 racing oil is conventional, non-synthetic racing oil.

pinzi
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Re: Oil additive to reduce gear friction - thoughts

Post by pinzi » Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:04 am

There has never been a racing engine in a pinzgauer nor a high compression one so whats the use of using racing oil :((
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rmel
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Re: Oil additive to reduce gear friction - thoughts

Post by rmel » Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:26 am

Valvoline's note as you posted is fairly accurate -- in spite of being a bit "Marketing".
ZDDP is a proven anti-wear additive, it is true that insufficient levels can lead to
wear and pitting in areas of high shear stress such as solid lifters. It is also true
too much ZDDP leads to corrosion. Adhesion to metal surfaces has a temperature
dependence, so there is some wear until there is some surface friction to activate
bonding.

The reason why ZDDP levels were reduced was due to antagonistic interaction with
Zinc and the Platinum in Cat converters resulting in early Cat failures. With reduced
ZDDP, the highest stress surface wear-out was solved with the use roller-lifters.

As an alternative, you could also use CJ-4 Diesel engine oil, this has proper levels
of anti-wear and likely less expensive. If anyone is using off-the shelf Oil in your
crankcase be forewarned. Below is the API guide on Oils if interested. Also an
article from Miller's Oil in the UK. I tripped over this article years ago, I also have
a picture home with Pinz lifers that look EXACTLY like the one in this article. IMHO
this is a must read -- this got me digging very deep into the topic. There's a fair
number of referred papers on the topic with repeatable lab measurements, so it's
not all self-promotional Marketing.

http://www.apicj-4.org/2009_engine_oil_guide.pdf

http://johnmaherracing.com/tech-talk/fl ... rs-part-1/
Puller: 71' 710K 2.7L EFI aka Mozo
Follower: Sankey MK 3, 3/4 Tonne
Rescue Pinz: 73' 712M

Driver: Ron // KO0Q

pinzi
Belgium
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Location: belgium

Re: Oil additive to reduce gear friction - thoughts

Post by pinzi » Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:37 pm

rmel wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 10:26 am
Valvoline's note as you posted is fairly accurate -- in spite of being a bit "Marketing".
ZDDP is a proven anti-wear additive, it is true that insufficient levels can lead to
wear and pitting in areas of high shear stress such as solid lifters. It is also true
too much ZDDP leads to corrosion. Adhesion to metal surfaces has a temperature
dependence, so there is some wear until there is some surface friction to activate
bonding.

The reason why ZDDP levels were reduced was due to antagonistic interaction with
Zinc and the Platinum in Cat converters resulting in early Cat failures. With reduced
ZDDP, the highest stress surface wear-out was solved with the use roller-lifters.

As an alternative, you could also use CJ-4 Diesel engine oil, this has proper levels
of anti-wear and likely less expensive. If anyone is using off-the shelf Oil in your
crankcase be forewarned. Below is the API guide on Oils if interested. Also an
article from Miller's Oil in the UK. I tripped over this article years ago, I also have
a picture home with Pinz lifers that look EXACTLY like the one in this article. IMHO
this is a must read -- this got me digging very deep into the topic. There's a fair
number of referred papers on the topic with repeatable lab measurements, so it's
not all self-promotional Marketing.

http://www.apicj-4.org/2009_engine_oil_guide.pdf

http://johnmaherracing.com/tech-talk/fl ... rs-part-1/
There is a diference between motor oil and gear (diff, portals, hi lo case) oil......there are additives and different type of oil to put in the gears.......but Like i said, there is no race or high rpms engine in the pinzgauer ://
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rmel
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Re: Oil additive to reduce gear friction - thoughts

Post by rmel » Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:33 pm

Absolutely correct, there is a huge difference (formulation) between engine Oil
and gear Oil. The Engine Oil part of this discussion should be on a different thread :oops:
That said, irrespective of the Marketing of the Valvoline "Racing Oil", it would not
be a bad choice for the Pinz application, again more for the wear protection, than
rev;s to 9K RPM :wink: I just think there are good but less expensive alternatives.
Puller: 71' 710K 2.7L EFI aka Mozo
Follower: Sankey MK 3, 3/4 Tonne
Rescue Pinz: 73' 712M

Driver: Ron // KO0Q

steyr92
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Re: Oil additive to reduce gear friction - thoughts

Post by steyr92 » Sun Jul 15, 2018 5:37 am

didnt want to release another oildiscussion just why going away so far from the specs :D
i have 80w90 in portals an every other gearunits and so far no problem neither in winter nor in summer.

the point with the tcase versions is also a point i'm dealing with because my 710m is rehab but with the old tcase without those oilcatching plates.
i'm for 2 month in the milirary now and i looked at the pinz still in service and they are also mixed with the 2 types eventhough all rehabs. but i'm not convinced that switching up to a higher grade would fix this "problem". but with additives i got a temp reduction. according to the manual the newer version tcase has more oil , i think 2.4 liters in it instead of 2, any experience with increasing the oil amount in an old version to help lubricating bearings? didnt the inside of both yet but it would be interesting to upload pictures from both to compare :DD
greets

pinzi
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Re: Oil additive to reduce gear friction - thoughts

Post by pinzi » Sun Jul 15, 2018 6:32 am

There is a way to increase the volume of oil in the tcase.....i was thinking Like this, if you could use more oil it would take
longer to heat up...if you could ad more cooling surface That would help to .
So with this in mind did someone ever came with the idea to use the distance pièce behind the tcace (the alloy piece That conects the tcase to the rear diff) and use it as a extra oil reservoir and cooling surface for the tcase.
I know That in Saudi Arabië they experimented with a sort of absortion cooling for there tcases on the G wagon with portal axles....same system as a absortion fridge....just an idea :roll:
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steyr92
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Re: Oil additive to reduce gear friction - thoughts

Post by steyr92 » Mon Jul 16, 2018 3:19 am

how significant are the lubrication problems with the old case when driving 90kmh for a longer time?

steyr92
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Re: Oil additive to reduce gear friction - thoughts

Post by steyr92 » Mon Jul 16, 2018 7:11 am

just spoke to the military pinz mech with over 20y experience and he told me no matter what version of t case he only once replaced one and also not because of thermal failure. :D

pinzi
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Re: Oil additive to reduce gear friction - thoughts

Post by pinzi » Mon Jul 16, 2018 3:24 pm

The tcase dousnt break...the bearings wear out to fast due the oil losing its lubricating function as the oil becomes to thin....
In the overhauled tcase they already put bigger bearings in :roll:
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Brady 712k
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Re: Oil additive to reduce gear friction - thoughts

Post by Brady 712k » Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:51 pm

I see now this is and was a post about gear oils :| ....
I know the pinz engine is not a "race engine" nor is it high compression :| .
It is older and can potentially benefit from motor oil that has some zinc in it that is why I posted the info on this motor oil :| .
If the word racing had you doubting it then oils for diesel engines I guess also have you doubting :P ?
I was just offering some potentially helpful info on oils... all be it if it was the wrong variant... motor VS gear...
My apologies!

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