Wheel Bearing failure/ Seal Replacement

Diffs, axles, lockers, transmissions, portals, that kind of thing.
undysworld
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Re: Wheel Bearing failure/ Seal Replacement

Post by undysworld »

I just replaced a brake backing plate for Pcolette recently, which was damaged by the bolts backing out and hitting the plate.

There's a reason those plates are no longer available.

Don't try to reinvent the wheel, just use the proper upgrade kit with the locktite and be done with it.
Nomad
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Re: Wheel Bearing failure/ Seal Replacement

Post by Nomad »

I guess I am just having a hard time picturing the bolts backing out with the locking tabs in place correctly. Especially if they are also locktighted. Not to doubt you or others at all it is just that I have seen locking tabs on many old 4wds and never seen a problem with them. And these old 4wds (40-50yrs old) never used locktight. Every Nissan and Toyota I have seen uses locking tabs on the wheel bearing nuts (first to come to mind), they don't back off if done correctly. Old Warn hubs is another example, each bolt in the outer hub has a locking tab on it. The tabs in question are there for a reason and locktight was around back in the day too. Now I could see a problem if say I used the old ones that are now beat up and didn't locktight things. How is the allens an improvement? Sorry but I am just trying to clearly understand how they are an improvement. Torqued to spec and locktighted is the only real improvement I am hearing, ie locktight.

It occurred to me last night, why not simply drill the stock bolts and safety wire them? Or if drilling is a worry replace them with some new bolts already drilled. This is the standard in racing and everything is safety wired. Seems bomber enough to me, especially if locktight is also used. You won't find an Ultra4 truck that doesn't have everything safety wired and for good reason.

Again, not trying to re-invent the wheel. Not saying I won't upgrade the bolts and do it that way. Rather, just discussing and during this process making up my mind as to what is best.
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pcolette
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Re: Wheel Bearing failure/ Seal Replacement

Post by pcolette »

The problem with the tabs on the locking washer, as it was explained to me, is that the tabs have been known to break off. They then "float" around in the wheel drive lube and become pulverized by the gears and eventually cause the seals to fail. If all the tabs break off the bolt can then loosen and shear off. This is what happened on mine that Paul Underwood was referring to. 2 bolt heads sheared and came thru the brake backing plate leaving about a 1" diameter hole.

The fix/upgrade as advised by Steyr is to replace the retaining washer with the thicker one, omit the tab locking washer and replace the bolts with hex head bolts coated in red Locktite. That is what Paul U. did on mine. The bolts (D009330760/) and 2 retaining washers (7102342321 & 7102342311) are available from SAV and EI. The bolts I received had been pre-coated at the factory with Locktite but more was added as a precaution.

I don't know where the allen socket head bolts come into play - all the originals and replacements were hex head cap bolts rated 10.9.
Paul C.
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'73 Swiss 710M
'89 Puch 230GE
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berger
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Re: Wheel Bearing failure/ Seal Replacement

Post by berger »

I was liberal with the blue locktite....hope that isn't an issue. I took those bolts off with a 1/4" socket wrench with some good arm strength, so I know that red locktite wasn't used prior. There was something in there for sure.

My guess for the socket heads is that they are less likely to round off. I have rounded out Allen head bolts, and that ain't fun. Hex heads are better in that regard. IMO.

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Ottawa, Canada
1974 710M
2007 2WD Ural Patrol
Nomad
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Re: Wheel Bearing failure/ Seal Replacement

Post by Nomad »

Great explanation Paul, thanks.

I find it really odd Steyr says to use a thicker retaining washer. Thicker means less thread down the hole. I also still do not understand the advantage of the upgraded-updated bolts. How are they any different? Are they simply not stressed? Are they longer or a better grade?

A quick search on Pirate4x4 came up with this...

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/general- ... loose.html

different application but some good reading and info in that thread.

A quick google search came up with this....

Nord-lock washers
http://www.mcmaster.com/#91074a133/=oje4iq

These are sweet but won't work on the axle/hub bolts. Will possible work great on pesky exhaust manifold bolts which seem to come loose easy.
http://www.stage8.com/manuallock.html

And the best....
http://drillheadbolts.com/

Image

I would say that would keep things in place very well. :)

Also, it seems key to make sure the bolt holes are very clean and free of oil and other goop. Otherwise the locktight isn't going to do a lot.

Food for thought folks, just food for thought.

Cheers
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pcolette
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Re: Wheel Bearing failure/ Seal Replacement

Post by pcolette »

The upgraded washer is thicker to make up for the "missing" locking washer is what I assumed. Otherwise I suppose the bolts might hit the bottom of the threaded hole and not tighten completely? I imagine only the Steyr engineers would have the complete answer.
Paul C.
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'73 Swiss 710M
'89 Puch 230GE
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berger
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Re: Wheel Bearing failure/ Seal Replacement

Post by berger »

What washer are we talking about? Mine had no washer on either side, unless you are referring to the circular piece with the holes that is inserted into the collar on top of the gear. My apologies for the lack of technical jargon. :D

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1974 710M
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Re: Wheel Bearing failure/ Seal Replacement

Post by Nomad »

ya that is what he is talking about, the spacer type washer. Big thick thing that sits down in the stub shaft.

I think I may wire my bolts down, buy new drilled bolts and use my safety wire pliers and set it up that way. Seems bomber to me, especially if I lock tight it. Styer definitely used safety wire here and there, I found the t-case flange was safety wired down. I do not question the engineers but as most Pinz owners know, they let a few things slide here and there on these trucks.

Cheers
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berger
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Re: Wheel Bearing failure/ Seal Replacement

Post by berger »

Nomad wrote:I do not question the engineers but as most Pinz owners know, they let a few things slide here and there on these trucks.

Cheers
They gotta allow SOME things to break...otherwise they wouldn't sell any spare parts!! :lol:
Ottawa, Canada
1974 710M
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Re: Wheel Bearing failure/ Seal Replacement

Post by Nomad »

So just some more info on my end...

I think pcolette is right about the new bolts being a touch shorter, and by touch I mean .10mm or less. That or the new thicker washer/spacer makes up the difference. The upper bolts in the portal box that hold the small gear to the axle shaft on my truck didn't have the locking tabs, only the bottom three. I assume from a previous repair, the uppers (lacking the tab) were heavily locktighted. There is an oh' so small gap without the lock tab, can't get a .10mm feeler gauge in there but it is close.

The bolts in question are 8mmx1.25 and 20mm long. I found some of the lower ones, ie graded 8.8 pre-drilled and was going to buy pre-drilled bolts. But I can't find the upper ones, ie 10.9 grade pre-drilled. Steyr must have used the higher grade on the top since it only has two bolts compared to three on the bottom. I don't have a jig for drilling the bolts so I decided to buy one and simply drill the stock bolts. Yes that means I am going to safety wire all five bolts on each side. If safety wire is good enough for jet engines, it should be more than good enough for a Pinz! Call it overkill or call me crazy, no matter it is the route I am going.

Cheers
Nomad
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Re: Wheel Bearing failure/ Seal Replacement

Post by Nomad »

I didn't see anybody answer the question about the marks or cracks on the alloy backing plate. These are casting marks and can be seen all over the truck on the aluminum cast bits. It is normal.


A word of advice on using PVC as a drift. Pretty dangerous. PVC is brittle and will shatter like glass. The stuff is also very toxic, if burned it creates chlorine gas. Much better to use a piece of pipe. If you can't find a pipe the right size, cut and weld on some plates to the pipe to make a drift that does fit right. Or just go to Napa and buy a bearing/seal driver kit. They are made from aluminum so soft as to not damage parts. They don't work for driving bearings over shafts but work for everything else. A kit comes with a variety of drivers that interchange onto a handle. You can use this to hammer stuff in and out or in the press. A brass punch and hammer set is also very valuable doing this kind of work. For bearings over shafts, I always use a pipe or a home made tool/drift. Also if you find a bearing to large for the seal/bearing driving kit, you can use old races for the same purpose.

I am in the middle of doing mine right now. I went and decided to change the axle bearings as well. I found three bearings in the whole bit were a real pita to remove. This being the small roller bearing pressed into the backing plate and the two bearings pressed into the wheel drive housing. I simply did not feel comfortable putting a puller on these which would push against the housing. In particular on the alloy backing plate. So I used a slide hammer with a 3-claw jaw. Pain in the ass but works and no damage to the housings.

I found not only bad wheel bearings in my wheel drives but also bad axle bearings. I am glad I ordered up all the bearings in the wheel drives. By the way, if you do your axle bearings. The manual does not state which way to drive out the axle shaft. You drive the shaft inwards into the housing. My buddy suggested we put notes in the manual on things like this so the next guy doesn't have to scratch his head! :)

I have heard people say the manual/parts books are very good of the Pinz. I think they are "ok". Coming from Toyotas and Nissans, they lack a lot in detail. I use parts books a lot for the exploded diagrams. However, the Pinz parts book is lacking a lot in detail and showing the orientation of certain parts. Drawings are not clear enough sometimes to make out a certain direction a part might be installed. Perhaps this is because Steyr made these trucks to pretty much only be assembled one way, ie it is hard to screw up and put stuff in the wrong way. Without the books I would be in having a much harder time working on my truck however I think the books could be a lot better. I also really dislike no torque settings in each repair section. Rather, you are supposed to reference the bolts in the charts and then use that for torque settings on the whole truck. That is fine and dandy but it is a hell of a lot easier if they just listed the torque settings in each section as you go along.

Cheers
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