Headlights not working on Austrian 712K

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Jake2015
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Headlights not working on Austrian 712K

Post by Jake2015 » Fri Feb 07, 2020 11:18 am

My headlamps, both low and hi beams are not working. The running lights that share a ground work, but no power to the headlamps. I checked the fuses (seems to be #11 and #12 on the wiring diagram) look fine. Can someone suggest best steps to running this down. Where should I start? What tends to be troublesome for headlights?

Thanks
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pcolette
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Re: Headlights not working on Austrian 712K

Post by pcolette » Fri Feb 07, 2020 12:57 pm

I'm not familiar with the Austrian wiring diagram, only the Swiss, but on the Swiss there are a total of 4 breakers (8amp each) for the low and high beams. It seems unlikely that all 4 (or 2) of your fuses have blown. I would first check for power at the headlights using a volt/ohm meter. If there is power then I would confirm that you have a good ground though with both headlights not working it is unlikely to be the problem since each side has a ground.
Sorry, wish I could be more help.
Paul C.
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Re: Headlights not working on Austrian 712K

Post by Jake2015 » Fri Feb 07, 2020 1:53 pm

Paul,

Thanks. My initial tests looks like no power at one of the headlights in the H4 connector. Since the two headlights seem to have mostly separate wiring, I’m wondering if it could be in the light switch? Although that does turn on the running lights.

Appreciate any suggestions.

Thanks,

Jake
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Re: Headlights not working on Austrian 712K

Post by rmel » Fri Feb 07, 2020 3:13 pm

Each bulb element is on a separate breaker (or fuse), but the Low
beams get power from one common terminal on the "Headlight Relay"
and the High beams also connect back to a second common terminal
on that relay. So if one headlight is working (both Low and Hi) but not
the other that tells you the relay, dashboard switch, and high-beam
switch are good so the fault is upstream from that e.g. breaker, or
bad connection etc.

If nothing works I'd get a meter on the relay terminal #56 (which also
connects to terminal #56 on the master switch) and also check terminal
#81a on the relay which should incidentally be HOT 24V and connects
to #30 back at the master switch. That's the power for the High beam,
which won't go on unless the master switch light position is ON and the
latching Relay for high beams is toggled.

Incidentally the terminal number schema is a Bosch (and industry) standard.
Puller: 71' 710K 2.7L EFI aka Mozo
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Rescue Pinz: 73' 712M

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Jake2015
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Re: Headlights not working on Austrian 712K

Post by Jake2015 » Fri Feb 07, 2020 7:50 pm

Thanks Ron. Neither headlight works in low or hi. No power at the fuses for the headlights so I was going back to the light switch relay (#24 below). Can someone tell me what that looks like or where exactly I find it?

Also, what is the "Multiple Switch for Turn Signal and Head Lamps" (#25 below). Is that the master switch?
Light Switch Relay & Multiple Switch for Turn Signal and Head Lamps.png
Light Switch Relay & Multiple Switch for Turn Signal and Head Lamps.png (1.34 MiB) Viewed 141 times
Thanks,

Jake
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pcolette
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Re: Headlights not working on Austrian 712K

Post by pcolette » Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:13 pm

The headlight relay on a Swiss Pinz is shown below. I don't imagine the Austrian would be very different.
IMG_2462.jpg
IMG_2462.jpg (372.63 KiB) Viewed 140 times
I think they are referring to the Turn Signal/Hi Beam switch on the steering column when they are mentioning the "Multiple Switch".
Paul C.
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'89 Puch 230GE
2002 MB G500 (For Sale)

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Re: Headlights not working on Austrian 712K

Post by Jake2015 » Fri Feb 07, 2020 10:55 pm

Paul,

Thanks. The picture helps a lot. How would I go about testing the relay?

Cheers,

Jake
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Re: Headlights not working on Austrian 712K

Post by rmel » Sat Feb 08, 2020 12:16 am

To answer your question. (#25) is the combo turn and high beam switch.
The high beam switch is momentary. A click will trigger the high beam
Relay (#24) ON and a second click will trigger it OFF. It’s a latching relay.

Get a meter on the input terminals #56 and #81a. Again note that #81a
(with the Battery disconnect ON) should always be HOT e.g. 24V present.
I'd be very surprised if that was not the case. Though the connection to
the relay could be loose or oxidized.

Terminal #56 should be Zero Volts, unless the Headlight Switch is ON -- turn
it on now and measure, should see 24V. If you do then you should also see 24V
on the output terminal of the relay #56a -- if you do then everything from
terminal 56a back is good and your problem is a bad connection up to the
breaker block. If no output on #56a then either the connection from #56 is
poor or the rely is bad. At this point try one more thing. Click the high beam
switch, you should hear the relay actuate. If you don't then that's a different
circuit you would need to debug. Could be the relay, high beam switch or a
bad connections. These are some things to try.
Puller: 71' 710K 2.7L EFI aka Mozo
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Re: Headlights not working on Austrian 712K

Post by rmel » Sat Feb 08, 2020 9:42 am

I could have been a bit more descriptive in debugging help
so I edited the last posting with more pointers. Good luck.
Puller: 71' 710K 2.7L EFI aka Mozo
Follower: Sankey MK 3, 3/4 Tonne
Rescue Pinz: 73' 712M

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Re: Headlights not working on Austrian 712K

Post by Jake2015 » Sat Feb 08, 2020 10:04 am

So on my truck it looks like this is a bit more difficult to access. Not sure what this cylinder in but not the relay you pointed out.
E5F7DB6D-E397-41B3-81D3-84D1C3EE1FF6.jpeg
E5F7DB6D-E397-41B3-81D3-84D1C3EE1FF6.jpeg (40.98 KiB) Viewed 105 times
There are two components behind the panel. I think this one is the relay. Would you agree?
B4D47BB2-C898-4A82-A98E-BD0A5ADCF7C1.jpeg
B4D47BB2-C898-4A82-A98E-BD0A5ADCF7C1.jpeg (30.25 KiB) Viewed 105 times
I wanted confirmation before tearing into it.

Thanks,

Jake
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Re: Headlights not working on Austrian 712K

Post by rmel » Sat Feb 08, 2020 12:23 pm

That cylinder device looks like the "blinker".

The apparent relay behind the panel appears to have only 4 terminals?
For the Swiss version of the relay there are 6 terminals. The Austrian version
could be fewer depending on how the harness was changed. Wire colors don't
jive with the Swiss version.

Hard to read out of focus PIX. Can you see the terminal numbers on relay?
The terminal numbering should be the same as again it's a Bosch standard the
rest of industry adopted. Try the high beam switch, do you hear it actuate?
You could sneak a meter probe on the Orange fast-on tab, I'd bet that's 24V,
is it terminal #56?. Switch on the Lights and see if that jumps to 24V.
Puller: 71' 710K 2.7L EFI aka Mozo
Follower: Sankey MK 3, 3/4 Tonne
Rescue Pinz: 73' 712M

Driver: Ron // KO0Q

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Re: Headlights not working on Austrian 712K

Post by Jake2015 » Sat Feb 08, 2020 4:08 pm

Turns out the relay is the second device with the black plastic bottom. I have power at #81a (red wire). I do not at #56 (White & Black wire) with lights switch on. I do get the running lights at both the first and second detents on the light switch.
IMG_8268.jpg
IMG_8268.jpg (123.74 KiB) Viewed 87 times
According to my wiring diagram, #56 is supposed to run back to "Blackout light switch", which is the main light switch, correct? That is hard to access but it looks like there are two white & black wires connected to the same terminal on the switch. That's about all I can see cramming my head between the steering and that the shifter.

Any words off wisdom about getting to the switch? Do I have to. pull the whole dash panel or can I unscrew the nut and somehow take off the lever (how would I do that)?

Many thanks,

Jake
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Re: Headlights not working on Austrian 712K

Post by rmel » Sat Feb 08, 2020 4:30 pm

Well at this point you have confirmed that power is getting to 81a -- that's good.
That's power for the High Beams. Let's see if you can figure out why the High's
aren't working. Figure that out then maybe it all comes together.

What should happen is when the relay goes ON power should then be applied to
the pair of High Beams. Find terminal #15 and #31b on the relay. Terminal #31b
should connect to the High Beam switch and that will take #31b to Ground when
the switch is triggered, latching the relay ON. But you need 24V on #15 (power to
the relay coil) so turn the light switch on and see if you have 24V on that terminal.
If you don't might be the Master switch gone funky or loose connections. They are
not hard to remove and test, if you end up doing that make sure the Battery GND
switch is open as terminals on that switch are HOT and not fused.
Puller: 71' 710K 2.7L EFI aka Mozo
Follower: Sankey MK 3, 3/4 Tonne
Rescue Pinz: 73' 712M

Driver: Ron // KO0Q

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Re: Headlights not working on Austrian 712K

Post by Jake2015 » Sat Feb 08, 2020 4:50 pm

You may have missed it in my last post, but #56 does not have power even with the switch on. Isn't that my problem? I can check the power to #15.

Thanks,

Jake
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Re: Headlights not working on Austrian 712K

Post by rmel » Sat Feb 08, 2020 4:57 pm

Hmmm, well that pretty much points to the master switch.
Still worth a peek at #15 before you dig into the master SW.
No power there then that's another contact on the master
switch gone funky.

I've replaced both in my 710 and the 712 they can go bad.
The internal contacts wear out.
Puller: 71' 710K 2.7L EFI aka Mozo
Follower: Sankey MK 3, 3/4 Tonne
Rescue Pinz: 73' 712M

Driver: Ron // KO0Q

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