My latest project - Disc Brakes for a 710/712

Issues with shocks/springs, tires, stopping, etc.
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Haf-e
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My latest project - Disc Brakes for a 710/712

Post by Haf-e » Thu Jul 27, 2017 4:38 pm

Its been too quiet on this site lately - so I thought it was time to show the project I've been working on for the last two years - a disc brake conversion for my Pinzgauer 710M.

The goal of the project was to make a "bolt-on" system which requires zero machining of the original Pinz parts - allowing for easier installation and replacement parts and, hopefully, a lower cost. Another goal was to also duplicate the Pinzgauer TD 716/718 disc brake setup as much as possible - same disc diameter and same caliper arrangement (i.e. dual calipers in front / single on rear) but using an easier to source, off-the-shelf caliper. Ideally the setup would work with the stock master cylinder also.

Well - the good news is that I was able to achieve all of those goals - but with one change - I had to go away from the stock Pingauer steel wheels and switched to steel wheels from a MB Sprinter (which are very similar to the Pinzgauer TD stock wheels). It should be possible to use Ford Transit or even Dodge Promaster wheels as well - there is an adapter / spacer included which can allow for either the stock 5x160 pattern or a 5x130 pattern (or possibly other 5x patterns).

The new brakes work extremely well. Was able to lock up all four wheels on dry asphalt pavement and they have great modulation ability - using the stock master brake cylinder.

Here is a photo of the front installation:
Front Discs - small.jpg
Front Discs - small.jpg (467.89 KiB) Viewed 1417 times
The calipers are Wilwood DynaPro's - which are now finally offered with dust boots which I consider a requirement for off-road use.

The new wheels allow the use of the G-Wagen center caps!
Rear Wheel with Disc Brake.jpg
Rear Wheel with Disc Brake.jpg (429.91 KiB) Viewed 1417 times
The setup does move the wheels outward 1 inch when using the Sprinter steel rims:
Pinz Rear - small.jpg
Pinz Rear - small.jpg (554.28 KiB) Viewed 1417 times
Here is the wheel adapter I used for the sprinter wheels which are hub-centric and use lug bolts:
Sprinter 5x130 adapter.jpg
Sprinter 5x130 adapter.jpg (641.87 KiB) Viewed 1417 times
And these are the steel brackets which allow the calipers to be attached to the stock backing plates without any machining:
Brackets.jpg
Brackets.jpg (455.7 KiB) Viewed 1417 times
I just added a proportioning valve to the rear brake circuit to allow manual adjustment of the rear brakes as I was finding it too easy to lock up the rear wheels on a lightly loaded 710. I found an easy way to install it right by the master cylinder that is easily accessible to the driver for adjustment. The Wilwood valve is nicely made and under $50 online.

So - I sent a message to Scott at Expedition-Imports asking if he was interested in selling this as a kit - but haven't seen a response yet. Anyone interested? The cost of a kit (if there was enough people to make up an order for 10 sets or so) might be about $800 (for a 710) or $1200 (for a 712) for everything other than the calipers and brake pads - which can be purchased online from many vendors (there isn't enough discount on them available to bother including them and they offer them in red, black and polished along with a dozen pad formulations). With the calipers/pads added, the total cost would be about $2000 for a 710 and $2800 for a 712 depending on the caliper and pads used. The new wheels would also be additional... but I've picked them up for $50 each off craigslist locally.

The other option to sell just the brackets and custom disc rotors and have all the other parts purchased separately from various web vendors - but there are a lot of little parts for the all the plumbing adaptions required.

Interested? Let me know...
Last edited by Haf-e on Thu Jul 27, 2017 4:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Haf-e

1971 Pinzgauer 710M

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Disc Brake Conversion Kits for 710 and 712 Pinzgauers
www.klugewerks.com

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Haf-e
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Re: My latest project - Disc Brakes for a 710/712

Post by Haf-e » Thu Jul 27, 2017 4:40 pm

Here is a picture of the wheels on my Pinzgauer - the top is removed as I am making a new hardtop for it and so its in summer mode:
Pinz with new wheels - small.jpg
Pinz with new wheels - small.jpg (488.76 KiB) Viewed 1416 times
Haf-e

1971 Pinzgauer 710M

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Disc Brake Conversion Kits for 710 and 712 Pinzgauers
www.klugewerks.com

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VinceAtReal4x4s
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Re: My latest project - Disc Brakes for a 710/712

Post by VinceAtReal4x4s » Thu Jul 27, 2017 4:43 pm

Well, damn!
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pcolette
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Re: My latest project - Disc Brakes for a 710/712

Post by pcolette » Thu Jul 27, 2017 5:45 pm

Very, very cool! Nice job!
Paul C.
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Haf-e
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Re: My latest project - Disc Brakes for a 710/712

Post by Haf-e » Thu Jul 27, 2017 5:55 pm

Thanks. I should also mention that the brake lines go through the same holes in the backing plate as with the drum brakes and it should be possible to do the Austrian refurbished trucks with their split front brake system also.

Changing pads takes only a minute per wheel and the Wilwood street pads that I like are only $40 for a set (so a total of three sets required on a 710 / four sets on a 712). Will make having a portal axle seal leak a lot less of a hassle and less costly!
Last edited by Haf-e on Mon Jul 31, 2017 3:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Haf-e

1971 Pinzgauer 710M

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Disc Brake Conversion Kits for 710 and 712 Pinzgauers
www.klugewerks.com

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TechMOGogy
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Re: My latest project - Disc Brakes for a 710/712

Post by TechMOGogy » Thu Jul 27, 2017 7:17 pm

For liability reasons I would doubt EI would want to sell unless there has been extensive testing and engineered simulations.
I love it and clearly a lot of thought, engineering and time went into this.
I would say a group purchase (usually hard esp on big $ items) or a kit with basic instructions would be the best way to go.
I think if it is an "incomplete" kit then there is limited liability and it can be sold for "off-road use only"
What size are the spacers?
72 Pathfinder | 75 710M 2.7i | 94 350GDT | 96 350GDT Worker

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Haf-e
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Re: My latest project - Disc Brakes for a 710/712

Post by Haf-e » Thu Jul 27, 2017 7:59 pm

Yes - liability is a concern, of course. Selling just the brackets and discs with all of usual disclaimers would be a possible approach.

Expedition Imports is selling the power steering kit "for off road use only" so that is similar and is about the same cost. The purpose of having the design be as close as possible to the design of the TD brake system is also part of the idea of reducing the perceived risk (perhaps...).

I did this project for myself - but since it came out so well I thought it might be of interest to others. Having powerful brakes, electric power steering and modern fuel management systems will allow more use of these trucks for more people.

I think even at today's resale prices, Pinzgauers are a great deal. With a little updating, they are even better and will appeal to more people. When I look at the amount of money friends put into their VW Syncros or Ford van Sportsmobiles - putting $2K into a "new" updated brake system seems reasonable to me.
Haf-e

1971 Pinzgauer 710M

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Disc Brake Conversion Kits for 710 and 712 Pinzgauers
www.klugewerks.com

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Haf-e
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Re: My latest project - Disc Brakes for a 710/712

Post by Haf-e » Thu Jul 27, 2017 8:09 pm

TechMOGogy wrote: What size are the spacers?
The spacers are 5x130mm with a center bore spigot of 83.6mm. For the Sprinter rims they are 1.75 inches thick - but the sprinter rim is deeper (ET of 75) and they are 6 inch wide vs 6.5 for the stock rims. There are a couple of other changes that bring it in another 0.25 inches. In the end, using the sprinter rims the outer edge is 1 inch farther out.

I haven't tried a transit wheel (which is about an ET of 60) but it might be possible that they have more clearance for the caliper. I know the Trail Ready wheels have plenty of room and can be moved in at least 0.75 inches compared to the sprinter wheels.
Haf-e

1971 Pinzgauer 710M

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Disc Brake Conversion Kits for 710 and 712 Pinzgauers
www.klugewerks.com

stiffler4444
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Re: My latest project - Disc Brakes for a 710/712

Post by stiffler4444 » Fri Jul 28, 2017 6:13 am

That is a brilliant set up. Confident braking is clearly a huge bonus. Nice work!
1972 710m

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GenevaPinz
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Re: My latest project - Disc Brakes for a 710/712

Post by GenevaPinz » Fri Jul 28, 2017 6:17 am

Impressive job! Congratulations for designing and building a brake system that is both simple and effective, as well as being a clear improvement over stock.
I will follow closely if you decide to go ahead with selling this as a kit. :wink:
Jan

'72 Pinzgauer 710M

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Re: My latest project - Disc Brakes for a 710/712

Post by pinzinator » Fri Jul 28, 2017 8:31 am

2 questions- the stock wheels cannot be used because the calipers make contact with them? I had this problem with a 60s Cutlass once.
Could discs be installed in the front only? The disc/drum combo seems to work OK on other vehicles, assuming the proportioning valve is set correctly.

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Haf-e
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Re: My latest project - Disc Brakes for a 710/712

Post by Haf-e » Fri Jul 28, 2017 8:38 am

Yes - the issue with the stock rims is the inner diameter isn't large enough - the sprinter and transit rims have about 1 inch larger inner clearance but are still 16 inch rims.

Sure - front disc / rear drums are possible. I was going to do that originally but liked the idea of a full conversion too much.
Haf-e

1971 Pinzgauer 710M

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Disc Brake Conversion Kits for 710 and 712 Pinzgauers
www.klugewerks.com

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Haf-e
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Re: My latest project - Disc Brakes for a 710/712

Post by Haf-e » Fri Jul 28, 2017 8:52 am

Here is the Ford Transit rim vs the stock Pinz wheel. The Sprinter rim is similar.
For Trsansit Euro Pinz beads.jpg
For Trsansit Euro Pinz beads.jpg (29.74 KiB) Viewed 1338 times
You can also see the "humps" on the more modern tubeless rim which help to keep the tires on the rim at low pressures.

I'll probably order up a US Ford Transit wheel to check the fit...
Haf-e

1971 Pinzgauer 710M

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Disc Brake Conversion Kits for 710 and 712 Pinzgauers
www.klugewerks.com

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Garrycol
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Re: My latest project - Disc Brakes for a 710/712

Post by Garrycol » Fri Jul 28, 2017 9:46 am

I take it that wheel adaptors/spacer are legal in the US - unfortunately in Aust they are completely illegal except if a OEM fitment. Get caught with them here and your vehicle has to be towed home.
1973 Haflinger AP700
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Haf-e
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Re: My latest project - Disc Brakes for a 710/712

Post by Haf-e » Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:50 pm

Yes spacers and adapters are legal and common here in the USA.

With the Ford Transit wheels, it should be possible to just use longer studs and to have the disc incorporate a spacer as part of it - would that work for Australia? Probably would still need an engineers evaluation which I think needs to be done on a per state basis? Is that correct?


Hopefully the Transit wheel will allow reduced offset. I'll order one up or try to borrow one from a neighbor. I know the Trail Ready wheels can be ordered to fit without a spacer or adapter.
Haf-e

1971 Pinzgauer 710M

Image
Disc Brake Conversion Kits for 710 and 712 Pinzgauers
www.klugewerks.com

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