Petronix question

Issues pertaining to the TGB/C30X series engine and driveline issues
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m15256
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Petronix question

Post by m15256 » Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:36 pm

Today I took some time to install a 24V Petronix unit in my otherwise stock TGB111. In the process I made an assumption that the relay and the disk shaped object just in front of the mounted coil in the engine compartment made up an ignition relay and ballast resistor. Petronix specifies that the black module wire go to coil negative post and red wire go to a switched 24 volt source prior to the ballast resistor. So after getting everything clean and installed I used 24V off the battery as the switched source to start the engine and see how it ran. It was cold, started right up, ran a little rough for about 6 seconds and died. It won't fire now which I assume means I compromised (destroyed) the module.

So my question is: Was my assumption about that metal disk mounted on the side of the engine bay correct? It is the original ballast resistor? Its kind of sealed up tight and challenging to get a meter on. I'd like to figure this out since those modules aren't cheap.

I'll try to post a picture.

Thanks, Rick

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Garrycol
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Re: Petronix question

Post by Garrycol » Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:59 pm

Petronix is very sensitive to the resistance of the coil - the module will burn out. So you need to check the resistance of the coil and any resistors used as a circuit - not individually - make sure this combined resistance is within specs for the unit.

On my haflinger I had a wasted spark coil and it was outside Pertronix specs so I had to change the coil back to a normal style coil of the required resistance.

So check the combined resistance of your coil and any resistors as a combined unit.

Garry
1973 Haflinger AP700
1977 Landrover FC 101
2007 Range Rover Sport TDV6
1971 Jaguar Series 3 E-Type Conv
1957 Landrover 88" Station Wagon
1957 Landrover 88"

m15256
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Re: Petronix question

Post by m15256 » Mon Sep 14, 2020 6:55 am

Attached photo of relay and Ballast (?)
Coil itself has 5.7 ohms of resistance. Installation instructions recommend at least 3 ohms.
Attachments
IMG-4861.JPG
IMG-4861.JPG (1.98 MiB) Viewed 658 times

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rmel
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Re: Petronix question

Post by rmel » Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:08 am

From the installation instructions for a 24V 6-cyl conversion -->

24-Volt Negative Ground Instructions
For Part Number: 2863N24
Before installing, please read the following important information....
1. NOTE: DO NOT REMOVE BALLAST RESISTOR, IT MUST BE USED WITH A 3.0 OHM COIL.
2. The Ignitor is designed for 24-volt negative ground systems.
3. The Ignitor is compatible only with a 3.0 ohm “resisted style” coil. You can purchase our 3.0 ohm
Flamethrower coil.
Puller: 71' 710K 2.7L EFI aka Mozo
Follower: Sankey MK 3, 3/4 Tonne
Rescue Pinz: 73' 712M

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m15256
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Re: Petronix question

Post by m15256 » Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:17 pm

Vince posted a wiring diagram Jan 15, 2019 which is the only version I have seen showing the relay and resistor. It's under the Body and Electrical group. All the other wire diagrams I've come across are for 12 volt civilian C303.

Is anyone else still using this original set up which seems more complex than necessary? Why not just run the hot ignition wire off the key switch to a ballast resistor then coil?

Is there a written description for the relay function? It doesn't appear in the shop manual I've seen copied.

Thanks,

Rick

Jim Molloy
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Re: Petronix question

Post by Jim Molloy » Thu Sep 17, 2020 4:58 pm

Rick,
To my understanding, in the EOM configuration, the relay is designed to temporarily allow unresisted 24VDC directly from the ignition switch to the coil at start-up. Shortly thereafter, the ballast resistor comes into play for normal coil operation. Seems more complicated than necessary but the Volvo engineers must have had good reason to include that.

I have operating a prototype Power Arc Ignitions system on one of our TGB1314A trucks for the last two months. It requires switched 12VDC to its tigger module (distributor) and three coils. From the ignition switch, the green wire travels back and splits with one wire going to the ballast resistor. I simply routed a wire from that junction to a 40A (total overkill) 24VDC to 12VDC converted which now provides switched 12VDC power to the ignition.

I am currently waiting for a second prototype to install in our AluZn TGB11. In the meantime, I was considering using an older Pertronix Ignitor. I am actually most curious about the Laubtec (Germany) conversion of stock B30A distributors to electronically triggered units. Think Pertronix Ignitor on steroids.

Please keep us informed as to what comes with your system.

Take care.
Jim Molloy
Waldersee Farm
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rmel
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Re: Petronix question

Post by rmel » Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:07 pm

Same with the Pinz, the ballast resistor is bypassed with the push to start button
providing more oomph for a spark to start. Ballast resistor is in the circuit
otherwise. Done with a switch rather than through a relay.
Puller: 71' 710K 2.7L EFI aka Mozo
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m15256
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Re: Petronix question

Post by m15256 » Sun Sep 27, 2020 11:33 am

Put new points etc. back in for the time being. Runs great, too cold, but that's a thermostat issue. I still want to pursue the electronic module thing. Maybe I burned up the last one because the Volvo sequence eliminated the ballast resistor during starting as you said. I thought the 5+ ohms resistance in the coil would satisfy the Petronix requirements.

Jim,
In your research did you consider the "123B30AEF" distributors? I think they are Dutch. It seems like the programmable advance curve is a little unnecessary for the C303 but the preprogrammed one might be just fine. It only operates on switched 12v but no big deal. I just couldn't afford the $450+ at the moment.

I have a capacitor between at the coil positive post. This shows up in the Parts Manual Group 34 Page 183. Was this intended to reduce radio interference?

Thanks,
Rick

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Re: Petronix question

Post by Jim Molloy » Sun Sep 27, 2020 9:45 pm

Rick,
I had looked at the 123 Igntion unit on and off for many years. The one and only thing that deters me from purchasing one of these very nicelooking units is its lack waterproofing. There have been reports on Michael's C303.de website of units failing due to moisture intrusion when driving on wet pavement in moderate rain. That may be fine for the desert Southwest but it will not work in the rainy Pacific Northwest. I know that measures can be taken to waterproof any ignition but the 123 system seems more delicate than even the stock condition whenit comes to water.

The second until from Power Arc Ignitions has arrived along with some sad news. The company does not plan to pursue manufacturing a trigger unit specifically for the Vovlo B30A motor after all. Their plan is to develop a generic base plate and generic trigger module that will snap onto a stock distributor in place of the original distributor cap. The original points would be removed and the advance weights would have to be secured from movement. I know thier emphasis with be on four cylinder VW motors with Bosch distributors. Their modue will likely snao onto a B20 Bosch distributor and Gary did say the generic triggering module could be modified to fire from one to eight cylinders. I am not sure what decent B20 distributors run now but I do know our prototype trigger module is a gem. I will take photos and a video of the second Power Arc installation and post them here when done.

I have yet to here anything back from Laubtec. Currently, the choices seem to be stock, Pertronix and 123 Ignitions.
Take care.

Jim Molloy
http://www.northwestmogfest.com

m15256
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Re: Petronix question

Post by m15256 » Tue Sep 29, 2020 6:02 pm

Jim,
Below is a link to another option similar to Petronix. It has a most detailed discussion regarding Bosch distributor models. Again they are 12 volt, however since their marketing seems to focus on Volvo Penta perhaps they've eliminated any water problems. Seems inexpensive. Have you heard of this outfit?


https://www.hot-spark.com/1-volvo-penta.htm

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Re: Petronix question

Post by Jim Molloy » Wed Sep 30, 2020 12:40 pm

I recently came across their sight ad was intriuged by the very low price compared to the Pertronix unit. I will be contacting them and asking about the use of one of their units on the Bosch distributor on the Volvo TGB trucks. If need be, I will send an original distributor their direction so the unit can be tested on the "real thing".

The 123 Ignitions firm has now released a 24V version of their Volvo six cylinder 12V distributor. No additional 24V DC to 12V DC step down converter that is required on all other systems. That still does not the lack of water resistance issue. I am still unclear why the Hall effect triggers MUST be 12V DC and none have been produced for the much older 6V cars or the typical 24V military units.

Thanks for the reminder on Hot-Spark.
Take care.
Jim Molloy
Jim Molloy
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dokatd
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Re: Petronix question

Post by dokatd » Fri Oct 02, 2020 11:14 pm

I have a 123 unit that I used on my B130. It worked exceptionally well and never had moisture issues in heavy rain such as we can get here in North Texas. I am considering installing it in place of my Pertronix in my Unimog 404 as it’s a direct fit.

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Re: Petronix question

Post by Jim Molloy » Sun Oct 04, 2020 8:42 am

That is good to know. The Mercedes M180/129/108/114/130/123 motor series certainly have a more exposed "up front" distributor location than the volvo B30A location torwards the back. At this point, I think we will move the original Power Arc Ignition prototype from the TGB1314A to the AluZn TGB11 and Keep the second Power Arc unit as a spare. The TGB1314A will then get the 123 Ignitions 24V unit. And for any extended travel, I will carry an original Bosch distributor as the final back-up.
Thanks for the information.
Jim
Jim Molloy
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m15256
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Re: Petronix question

Post by m15256 » Mon Oct 12, 2020 9:01 pm

I got in touch with the folks that make the 123 ignition and asked them about the water issue. I said that I did intend to go off road but had no intention of submerging the engine. Below is the reply. I'd hate to think I'd have to worry about washing the engine with de-greaser and a hose, but I suppose its not running when you do that.


Hi Rick,

Sorry for the late reply.

The 123 is not waterproof and you should not submerge it but occasional splashes is no problem, this also happens in ”normal" cars during heavy rainstorms etc.

If you need to run the distributor submerged in water you need to waterproof the ignition cables and distributor cap to the 123-body and I would also make sure there is some positive air pressure inside or at least a breather on the 123 to prevent it sucking in water, when it is submerged in water and suddenly cooled down the air pressure inside it would drop.

Something like this could be a start https://www.sportsandclassics.com/parts ... orts-cars/
Also, there is a threaded hole (M6 I think) in the bottom of the distributor that you should use to make an extra earth wire connection between the distributor and engine, if you do not and leave it open that is obviously where water could enter. Apart for a earth/ground connection point you might also use it as an for breather opening .

Best regards,
Aryan

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