Water pump fitment

Issues pertaining to the TGB/C30X series engine and driveline issues
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macca
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Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2005 12:03 pm
Location: UK

Water pump fitment

Post by macca » Fri Sep 09, 2005 3:59 am

Has anybody had the pleasure of refitting the water pump to their Volvo?
I am struggling to get the two seals that sit between the pump and the underneath of the head to seat correctly.As the pump is tightened up the seals drag on the underside of the cylinderhead, resulting in the seals being lifted from their seats.
Am I doing something wrong or can the pump only be fitted with the head lifted/removed?
Help needed ASAP.
Thanks
Col

Roy Gardiner
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Location: Hampshire, England

Replacing B30 water pump

Post by Roy Gardiner » Fri Sep 09, 2005 7:55 am

An update for you guys

Colin is re-fitting the new pump on the 1314 so I can collect it...further enquiries have revealed the 'trick method' for re-fitting a water pump on these engines that you might find useful - so here it is....

According to Rob at Amazon Cars (UK) the secret is to select the correct
sealing tubes for the top of the pump (longer ones for a low compression engine like ours, shorter for the 164 HC lump) put the seals into the locating grooves on top of the pump, put the block gasket on the back of the pump and mount it with just the top right-hand bolt (as a pivot) which you just snug down (so it won't bend).

Lever the pump up from underneath to compress the seals underneath the head without displacing them, then put the other two bolts in and nip them all up. Check for leaks when re-filled, check bolts torque settings.

I've relayed all this to Col, so we'll let you know if it works later today!

Roy

p.s. The offical line is that pump replacement is best done with the cylinder head removed...... :cry:

p.p.s. Turns out that the standard B30 pump DOES fit - the suppliers had sent the wrong pump (in the right box!)

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lindenengineering
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Post by lindenengineering » Fri Sep 09, 2005 8:06 am

Macca
This repair can be done with the head in situ.
Our technique is to "glue" the O rings into place on the head with silicon sealant,let it set for a while, before inserting the pump under the face. Use some lube sparingly to facilitate the sliding bit.

By the way I did see a note about the C303 pump being different from the standard 164 pump arrangement. Yes it is, but its only real difference is the drive flange pressed onto the pump shaft. If you do try swopping flanges make sure you use correct pulling tools or you will break the ears off the flange and you will need to support the spindle shaft to avoid displacement when pressing on the flange & recording the stack height dimension.

One further point, there are alot of aftermarket pumps available and there may be "drift" on the case size making install difficult so I would check the overall case thickness before wrestling it in place.
Best of luck
Dennis

Roy Gardiner
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C3 water pumps - common problem?

Post by Roy Gardiner » Fri Sep 09, 2005 8:28 am

Hi Dennis,

So do these engines like a water pump occasionally?

I wonder how many of us out there have had this problem....

Roy

Roy Gardiner
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Water pump beeding (nuisance?)

Post by Roy Gardiner » Fri Sep 09, 2005 8:38 am

Dennis,

Is there a demon technique for bleeding the cooling system in the Ambulance, with all the gubbins in the box heating included?

Roy

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lindenengineering
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Post by lindenengineering » Fri Sep 09, 2005 8:42 am

Roy Hello
In short no not really.
When we started "doing" on these trucks I purchased from many sources a scale of parts to technically support these trucks.

I got a job lot of 164 pumps considered obsolete by the dealer. Eight in total, I have sold only two in two years, one went onto a truck we sold that was noisy, and the other onto an engine rebuild we did as part of an FIE conversion.

So I would say that these trucks don't eat pumps but as with any water cooled engine, a pump failure can take place at any time especially aggrevated of course by excessive belt tightening techniques, or in the degredation of coolant solutions.

Its that maintenance issue again!
Too many repairs from neglect means no beer money!
D

EX-INF
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Post by EX-INF » Fri Sep 09, 2005 1:11 pm

Hello all
more usefull info
cheers

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lindenengineering
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Post by lindenengineering » Sat Sep 10, 2005 4:36 pm

Roy
On bleeding or burping the system (any system for that matter we use an (Airlift). Made in Canada its a vacuum suction system that runs off the shop line. Essentially it fits on the filler cap and sucks air out of the cooling system whilst filling with coolant. Very useful tool when dealing with later LR"s that have the thermostat on the lower hose connection and some of those oriental motor cars that we are all fond of!
D

groentas
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Re: Water pump fitment

Post by groentas » Mon Sep 12, 2005 6:07 am

macca wrote:Has anybody had the pleasure of refitting the water pump to their Volvo?
I am struggling to get the two seals that sit between the pump and the underneath of the head to seat correctly.As the pump is tightened up the seals drag on the underside of the cylinderhead, resulting in the seals being lifted from their seats.
I changed the waterpump on a Volvo 175 about 15 years ago.
I had the same problem as you describe, because the reciept for the pum-change in my book was a little wrong. I ended up buying new seals from Volvo, and on their package there was a correct procedure.
The book told me to mount the upper bolt on the cars left side first, and then rotate the pump into possition. But that doesn't work.
You'll have to mount the lowest bolt first, since the angle will then become smaller when rotating the pump.
I hope this helps.
Grønntass
Volvo L3314N, fiberglass-top
Volvo C304, radio-box

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Philip Raymond
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C3 Series Water Pump Suggestions

Post by Philip Raymond » Tue Sep 13, 2005 6:39 pm

Roy & Colin,

I’ve been involved with a handful of C3-Series water pumps replacements over the past 4-5 years and have another scheduled next week that I’ll be working on.

I’m not sure I agree with Volvo’s choice of water pump solution for this class of machine. The compression fittings don’t exactly imbue a sense of ruggedness or field serviceability, specifically when you trip all over your mistakes and leaks the first time installing and reinstalling. If I may, a few suggestions on how to proceed based on my limited experience…. I assume that the fan assembly has been loosened and the drive shaft and flex joint are disconnected:

1. Using Toyota Seal Packing (00295-00102) lightly coat the longer of the rubber seals and insert them into the top of the pump fixture. Place enough sealant to hold captive the rubber seals and also lightly coat the tops to complete the seal once they are in contact with the cylinder head. I choose to not use the supplied gasket (if you plan to use a paper gasket, don’t forget that you have to order separately the water pump gasket from Volvo if you use a Volvo OE pump). I find Toyota’s Seal packing to work nicely; it does set up pretty quickly though (10-15 minutes).

2. Here’s the crux when installing the pump (covered in the maintenance manual Group 26:4) you need to lever the top rear of the pump into the overhanging cylinder head. Once it’s pressed firmly against the head, rotate the lower part of the pump body towards the engine and temporarily bolt up the left side to seat the pump then go ahead and bolt up the right hand bolt.(Depending on you threshold of discomfort. I find that doing this from inside the cab seems to work quicker, offer more muscle leverage)

3. You now have to work in the compression fittings for the low side of the radiator and heater core hoses. Critical…. if you see any of the ribbing on the metal connectors they are not seated and are prone to letting loose later. Depending on what pump you use. Volvo OE or after market, this may be easy or not. Machining tolerances of the OE pump pretty much make it easier to press fit these fittings. After market pumps are a different story. I recommend removing the lower straight rubber hose off of the radiator (larger size) feed pipe to the pump. This will give you more freedom in fitting up the metal pipe and also make it much easier to reseat the left retainer bolt, then it’s much easier to re-connect the rubber hose. With this fitting and the smaller hose I’ve done the same thing with my Toyota sealant and the shorter two rubber seals left, making them captive and lightly coating the tops. This can be done at this stage or all together before positioning the pump initially.

4. Depending on your C3 model (CIVIL vs. Military) the next part can help or hinder if you find it difficult press fitting the top (smaller size) heater circuit connection. This little pipe can be a bear to fully insert for a good press fit. On the CIVIL C3’s you can peek up under the exhaust manifold and loosen up the bolt that hold the top pipe in a clamp (rear of engine) and also loosen up the clamp that holds that pipe and the pipe coming off of the top of the oil cooler. Once that’s done you’ll be able to reach around the under side of the manifold and slightly rotate that top pipe to better align the press fitting at the water pump end into the water pump. Otherwise it’s struggle. Do not leave any of these press fitting ribbed ends exposes. On the Military models it’s a bit harder to get behind the manifold air intake pre-heater flange, tubing and box. Don’t forget to check the top of the oil cooler donut to insure that you have not dislodged that press fitting.

5. Volvo C3 part# is 461162, unless your great uncle works for the SDF you, probably won’t find that pump. You can use Volvo part # 461094 from the civilian B30 on the same year 164 vehicles. You’ll need to press on and off the mounting flange to accommodate the military pulley and fan shaft. The spacing from the rear face of the water pump and the rear of the flange should be 102 mm. If you’ve swapped to electric, you can use the twin 10.5 mm lighter pulley off of the 164 and forgo the pressing. Be careful in pressing you can actually press the shaft out of position in the water pump.

6. Should you find it difficult to source a Volvo pump, try to stay with a quality aftermarket product. Go too cheap and you’ll actually be replacing the pump soon…. unbelievable but some pump providers use a pump bearing with a plastic race. Incredible as it seems it’s happened. My suggestion in order of quality, not necessarily availability, …HEPU, GRAF, GNB, SIL and finally Meyle. Any other no name….”Caveat Emptor”!! ?? Of course if you can find and afford Volvo OE, go for it.

7. As mentioned at the start, I think the water pump is a weak point. Couple it to the fan assembly and I believe it needs to be monitored. I’ve seen at least three vehicles where flex joints have failed, introducing a “precession” in the rotation of the drive shaft. Not an ideal condition! Even in a “new state” those flex joints and the rest of the fan assembly, I believe, can put an undue “rotating moment” onto the pump bearings. I’ve also had the opportunity through some cooling prototyping and design work to destructively test the pumps. Personally I carry a spare on my adventures.

8. A final note: a failing pump may give these deceptive, “engine in the throw of death noises”, emanating from the rear lower part of the block. It’s this odd erratic metallic sound that almost sounds like one of the main bearings rotating in it’s seat. Depending on how far gone it is you may be able to sense it by feeling the fan shaft. Best way is to disconnect the fan shaft and actually rotate the pump and or move the collar up and down. Generally if it’s not leaking when you hand rotate it you’ll hear the gentle little pinging of the ball bearings as they fall out or around the failed bearing. Hope this helps!!

Roy Gardiner
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Location: Hampshire, England

Water pump perils & pitfalls

Post by Roy Gardiner » Wed Sep 14, 2005 11:30 am

Thanks for your comprehensive reply Phillip - sounds like a minefield for the inexperienced (that'll be us then!).

I'd better print this thread off and have it on the driver's seat for reference before we pick up a spanner... :? .

Should be in possession of the right pump tomorrow at last - so we'll report back on progress.

Roy

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Philip Raymond
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Water Ways

Post by Philip Raymond » Wed Sep 14, 2005 1:58 pm

Roy,

"sounds like a minefield for the inexperienced", not quite, but not as straight forward as some other water pumps. The only bugger is that if not done correctly, you'll spend hours trying to figure out what's wrong while the pump and hoses are pissing themselves. The uneducated first time through was painful, just trying to save you those growing pains.

Good Luck.

Roy Gardiner
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Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2004 12:59 am
Location: Hampshire, England

Water pump - sorted

Post by Roy Gardiner » Wed Sep 28, 2005 5:24 am

Thanks to your posts, Colin and I were able to re-install the water pump successfully first time, following the tips from you guys on the list - what a great resource this is - thankyou Vince.

Definitely best to refit the small pipe (routed under the exhaust manifold)
into the pump BEFORE offering the pump up for inital bolt-on, otherwise we found it almost impossible to re-seat the end of the pipe in the pump
(as warned by Phillip).

Once again - thanks chaps.

Roy - back on the road and drip-free!

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Philip Raymond
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Water Pump

Post by Philip Raymond » Wed Sep 28, 2005 7:51 pm

Roy,

Good to see it went well. Do double check that one fitting that goes on to the top of the oil cooling donut. Or at least monitor the bottom of the donut ( a bit easier) for any leakage. Even though the original engineering/manufacturing BOM called out for just one rubber gasket in the press fitting, That back fitting is even testier than the front fitting on the pump and I’ve seen “factory fixes” of putting two gaskets, a little spit and a prayer on it, pressing it in just a little bit (fit ring still exposed) and hoping it holds. It does till someone fiddles with a water pump. Maybe you’ll get lucky! If not it requires taking a torch to the pipe re-bending the back angle that goes into the donut top and fabbing up a new bracket to clamp the bottom donut tube to the top rear heater tube. You must do the clamp to avoid it loosening from thermal and physical loading.

Cheers,

brandonium
United States of America
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Re: Water pump fitment

Post by brandonium » Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:23 am

I could really use some clarification on this since I am struggling at the moment with my new pump leaking from the top seals. Is the correct way to stab the right corner bolt and hand tighten then swivel the pump up towards the left side and press into place before bolting the left corner bolt? My first attempt I did it this way and also used a large c-clamp since no amount of muscling would allow that left corner bolt to go in. I have heard of others using a piece of wood and a bottle jack to get pressure up on the seals against the head. Also others are stating you don't bolt anything and press the pump into place then stab both corners. I cannot see that working.

Once you have both corners bolted I guess you bolt the lower bolt before unbolting the right corner bolt again to attach the heater pipe? I used Hylomar on the actual block gasket but just vaseline on the top and side seals. I also used the thicker/longer top seals as instructed for the B30a application.
2. Here’s the crux when installing the pump (covered in the maintenance manual Group 26:4) you need to lever the top rear of the pump into the overhanging cylinder head. Once it’s pressed firmly against the head, rotate the lower part of the pump body towards the engine and temporarily bolt up the left side to seat the pump then go ahead and bolt up the right hand bolt.(Depending on you threshold of discomfort. I find that doing this from inside the cab seems to work quicker, offer more muscle leverage)

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