Volvo chat

[lindenengineering]

Hey guys.
I know there is no sub titile for Volvo chat lines like "upstairs" in the Pinz section but this side of this bulletin board is as dead as the dodo.

Come on folks I bet there is lots to chat about. I for one am interested to see alot more enquiries on this section of the board. We do alot with these trucks including a " Mobile Concept Vehicle" for a well known burger company. Ya know a "Redbull type thing". Besides we got more horsepower gas/ diesel and water cooling & heat to keep those scantily clad promo ladies from getting to "goose bumpy". :

We probably do more with these trucks than most so if you want info post it and I/we will do our best to comment. :

[PortalM]

That sounds great. I thought this board was dead as well. I was also hoping that Vince would post some shots of his Moab trip.

[Wutizit]

Hot damn- postings on the Volvo side! Hoo-wee! I've got the tan C303 that Vince last built up, and it's great. Been working on the interior since pretty much everything is done to it exterior wise. Still have a few more instruments to install, and still working on putting up the rest of the headliner, etc. New seat cushions for the passenger compartment need to be ordered and covered, as well.

Linden- what sort of mods do you guys do, on the C303s? Mine still has the stock radiator & fan setup, though it seems to work just fine (even in the Virginia humid summer heat- but when I come to a stop I tend to melt since there is no AC). I don't know, but it may have had a new radiator installed when the military put the new body, wiring harness and all on in 1995. The motor runs just fine, but I do dream of a diesel some day. I don't know if it can be safely done, what with the torque difference between a gas & diesel engine. And I'd imagine I'd lose my top speed. But I am interested to learn what can be done with these wonderful beasts.

-Scott

[lindenengineering]

What have we done to Volvos. Let's see;

Installed an upgraded radiator core.
Installed an electric fan with wading cut out.
Installed an FIE engine from a later Volvo 164 car. This thing was fast and fun to drive. Instant response on the pedal and you had to be careful to ensure the steering was pointed in the direction you wanted to go before letting the clutch fly. Down side?
The old Bosch engine management system is getting a bit ancient and hard to find some parts these days.
Then
Looked at installing different engines.
DT246t, easy job, but personally don't like those Audi/Volks engines. From my experience a bit on the weak side, they love to overheat and MELT. In short "JUNK". Sorry

Landrover 330Tdi looks good and combo'd with a LandRover/Jag ZF transmission it would make the truck run very nicely indeed

I have shoe horned a Chev Vortex V6 and the ever popular small block V8 into the engine space.Coupled to a 700R4 there would need be an adaptor made to couple the Volvo T/case to the maincase to marry up the drive shafts. Cooling is a problem (poor heat rejection) if using the current radiator arr' but copying the Chev method (like Astrovan) you could close couple the radiator/fan arr' and tunnel in the airflow through the current grill.

On ther A/C side the install of a compressor is easy since the brackets are available from the 164 car. With not much room in the dash I have opted for the Kysor style roof mount. The rear on a tin top gets uncomfortably hot for rear passenegers in summer, so we have installed sliding tinted to the rear quarter and the same in the doors.

We have fannied around with other smaller ideas but currently we are heavily occupied converting a 6X6 to a mobile concept truck with what the customer says is "BLING BLING". Once done we will post it for you all to gloat over.
Dennis

[Roy Gardiner]

Hi Dennis and all,

Thanks for all the useful info you post here,

I thought you might be interested in a C306 I knew of a few years back in the UK, the owner had fitted an Isuzu Turbo diesel engine (around 3.5 litres ISTR) and a range Rover (4 speed) gearbox and transfer box to get the gearing he wanted (as the diff ratios are v.difficult to change for the 6x6 he told me).

The end result was much quicker 'off the line' and cruising speed was around the UK legal limit (70 mph) - only problem was the gear change was reversed, i.e. first was where 4th would be etc but I found I adjusted to that quickly on the road.

I plan to run my C306 ambulance standard for a while (with bigger tyres though to reduce noise and help cruising speed) and see if the cost of a diesel conversion is justifiable for my planned world trip.

We have loads of folk converting their big petrol engines to LPG gas in the UK to lower running costs - is that happening in the States yet??

[BERT]

converting their big petrol engines to LPG gas in the UK to lower running costs - is that happening in the States yet??

Roy,

For the past six months I have been trying to find a source here in the US that could help me in converting over to LPG in a Pinz to no avail. Seems
strange since in the late '60's early '70's I was able to convert my vehicles without much trouble. On your side of the pond there are numerous easily
found sources.

Bert

[lindenengineering]

Interesting Discussion.
I think you will find the reason for the lack of LPG conversions on this side of the pond are simple, gas or petrol is cheap and the upfront costs to convert are not attractive enough. (yet! to consider a conversion)

The same goes for diesel conversions, apart from the ever re-occuring tiresome enquiry on the Pinz boards about converting a Pinz to diesel, the conversion is simply too bloody expensive for the Yanks to stomach. After all being pragmatic you have to say "what is the payback for coverting to CI engines".

Being WEBASTO agents we even have a hard sell on our hands about Blue Heat systems that are guaranteed to reduce fuel consumption and give a payback over two years at current fuel prices. The fleet operator is all ears, but a private motorist isn't really interested in saving fuel that much. In Europe the Webasto Park Heat (as its called over there) is universally installed to conserve fuel. Then, you folks over there have good reason at about $9 per gallon to conserve. Over here we are enjoying fuel at chump change pricing.

Fuel prices will inevitably rise over here over the long term according to one of my customers who is the president of an oil & gas company, but there is little incentive today to conserve at current pump pricing.

Its interesting, that each time we get a 20c hike in prices we get an surge in diesel conversion enquiries mostly for LandRover repowers. The recent increase have enabled us to repower a G wagon, and currently we are converting a Merz 380SL car to diesel.
One of the impediments to conversion is simply there are few suitable engines in US the market place to use as donors. Apart from the old stalwart 5 banger M617 turbo diesel/Perkins Phaser (now obsolete) , there is not alot of engines out there we can use for diesel repowers that have good factory support and parts availability.
The C volvo series can easily accept a number of engines including the Isuzu (as you have mentioned) and the Nissan 6 cyl unit found over here in forktrucks! (Stacker Trucks).
The scope is a bit flexible for pre 1996 vehicles where OBD2 interface connections are not required but once you pass this threshhold you need to install OBD2 compliant engines for emissions.
GM/GMC got over some of these regs by installing a "Mickey Mouse" ECM and a few solenoids to their early 6.2/6.5 V8 diesel, and even had to eventually go to drive by wire fuel pumps that proved to be a service disaster over the long term for the company. The engine is listed as a compliant unit by the FEDS and I have to conclude who bribed those in high places to get certification , since they are both filthy polluting pigs. No wonder GM went to Isuzu for its 6.6 engined pick up.
Here lies the rub for us diesel converters over here, there are engines that are OBD 2 compliant like the 7.2/6.0 Ford really International engines, the Cummins 6.9s and the Isuzu 6.6 ers, but these are too large for the majority of repowers we do for the mostpart.
Volkswagon does a nice small unit that is generally a bit too small for most bigger applications, and besides VW is not the most helpfull when it comes to people using their products for nepharious applications. (I am being kind about this company, and I will leave it at that).
If you try to import some of the later diesel offerings as built up units you will come up against the Customs declarational wall, so you can conclude there is a subliminal wall to the small guy taking advantage of the dearth in diesel engine availability, and this is by design quite frankly manipulated by the big three who have a VERY strong presence in the halls of power.
Nuff said!
Dennis

[Roy Gardiner]

Without getting too political here about different countrys' attitudes to conservaton of resources I agree that the costs of a diesel conversion are pretty prohibitive everywhere.

Having said that, the C3's do lend themselves to conversion much more readily than the early Pinz, from what I've seen so far, as well as being usefully that bit bigger in all dimensions.

For that 'hard to convert' reason I eliminated a 712 as a candidate for my off-road camper project and getting hold of a 718 at anything like sensible money has proved impossible in the UK/Europe (i.e. the ex German coal mine box bodied 1992 with 66K miles at $31,500 !)

Apart from fuel savings (for US readers petrol in the UK is currently 92 pence per litre, equivalent to $5.91 per US gallon, diesel is over $6 per US gallon) my interest in a diesel conversion was prompted by safety considerations with volatile petrol in extreme desert conditions.

Have any of our readers had bad fuel experiences in those extreme temperatures?

On another note Dennis - have you had a look in a 303 diff to establish if a pto gear might be available that would mesh with the 303 pinion to provide the required drive to the rear-most axle? (in my quest for better road-gearing for a C306 or TGB22 even - I like that longer wheelbase)

Alternatively how about replacing the ZF transfer box with an early 'unbreakable' 4 speed Range Rover gear box/transfer box that we could hang an overdrive on?

Can I presume there is no overdrive available for the ZF setup?

[lindenengineering]

Roy
To respond to some of the technical questions raised, there are alot of combinations that would re-power a C series Volvo, over the past few months I have shared on this board some of our experiences, including the limitation of the current radiator.
The same goes for the drive line, its a matter of finding a gearbox/axles that will accept the input torque of the engine you want to install. Be it gas(petrol) or diesel.
For those not familiar with the Landrover manual gearbox, the later offerings by ZF go by RG 380, i.e 380Nm input torque is the service ceiling. The C Volvo employs a 4 speed ZF derivative of the same box used in a Pinzgauer. For the diesel range a 5 speed overdrive unit is a standard fit and sometimes used by the 710/71 M & K crowd. From what I can see this ZF unit can be adapted to mate to Volvo transfer case or any other for that matter. Judging by what I see this gearbox hooked up to the input torque has to be at least 300NM.

Indeed this OD box can be found hooked up to a Maserati Bi Turbo, so it has some respectable input torque ability. Perhaps there are a few Maseratis rusting away in UK wrecking yards for you to scrounge one up!

I would have also thought that over your side the opportunity to use a TD5 Landrover and gearbox would be a cheaper option than we can enjoy. I see Rimmer Bros have some attractrive pricing on rebuilt units.

I have to state that when I was "doing" diesel re-powers and diesel conversions for truck/bus factories around 20 years ago, there were lots of unit maunufacturers willing and eager to sell their products for these types of conversions. Today however things have changed significantly, the big companies around today have gobbled up all the small (and not so small ) companies making gearboxes and axles, so finding suitable donors is shall we say difficult to marry all the elements together.

On a final note taking PTO power from the gearbox is OK for partial torque take off but from what you are suggesting would require a full power take off capacity, something for which the box was never designed to carry.
Dennis

[Roy Gardiner]

Dennis

Sorry I phrased my question badly, it wasn't about PTOs really!

In the quest to gear-up a TGB 20 (for camper use only) I was thinking about swapping in C303 diffs, but it would only work if the output gear on the centre axle 303 diff could drive the prop to the rear-most axle (C303 diffs appear to have the usual take-off 'hatch' for the rear-most prop to bolt onto).

As the rear-most prop input gear picks up off the centre diff's pinion, I guess you couldn't use it, owing to the different pinion gear ratio?.

Love the idea of shopping around for Maserati bits in the breakers yards -I can imagine the two-word replys to "Got any Bi-Turbo bits in mate?" !!

But it sounds like a 5 speed ZF box could provide an 'overdrive' facility from what you say - thanks.

Roy

[lindenengineering]

Roy
OK got your drift!
Obviously the ratio of the all axles must be the same to avoid tie up & failure, therefore the take off assembly mounted on the Ist drive axle will be a 1:1 drive since the rearmost axle must turn at the same ratio as the others.
I haven't torn one completely open but I bet the take off gear (driver) will be either splined by virtue of the existing pinion splines or pressed onto the pinion shaft.
Since the makers (Salisbury) are likely to use standard parts for this application, the interchangeability of the higher c303 pinions & crown wheels is probably good to almost certain.

We are about to break a c303 for parts since the chassis/body is rapidly turning back to its base (iron oxide). I can bust one open for you and look to see if there is changeability. At least the major units are good!

As for other ratios, remember since the axle is Salisbury, there may be some possible interchangeabilty by using Landrover et al ring gear sets.
(I need to look at this and do some research, certainly food for thought!!)

Yes it has to be a long shot to find an "ITEye" BI Turbo in a UK wrecking yard.
So I will leave you with a question. How can you tell a breakers yard from an Auto Recycler?

Answer is simple!
The breaker scratches his beard and looks skyward like a star gazer, telling you where you might find the parts under a bush in the corner of the yard, whereas the Auto recycler has a location and a computer!
Strange world we live in nowadays.
Best Regards
Dennis
Originally from the area where "yu culdn't put a betr bita butur on yur nife"

[Roy Gardiner]

Hi Dennis,

If you could pull off the C303 diff 'hatch' plate and count the splines (or gear teeth??) on the pinion shaft that would be very useful indeed, as it might open up the possibility for diesel conversions (more work for you I'm afraid!) for those lower-revving diesel units.

Also means we could purchase the ultra low-geared (but ultra cheap) TGB 20 trucks, with the ideal long wheelbase for camper bases, and re-gear them for practical road use (apparently they only do 40 mph on the road with their standard gearing) then we can sell their diffs to the off-road competitors doing winch challenges on huge tyres over here!.

I'll do the same with the TGB1314 centre diff this end when I take delivery of the beast. C303 diffs won't be that easy to source, although there are a few Swedish websites that seem to snap up all of the Swedish army sales output every time.

Do any of our readers here speak Swedish? I've tried a couple of the Web translators to read their pages without success. If we could crack their descriptions it may be possible to order these parts and bring them into the UK (or onward to the States) as needed - it's only a ferry ride from here after all.

And the difference between a breaker and an Autoparts dismantler? - about 33% on the bottom line I find.

How much is diesel (and petrol) now in the USA by the way?

Roy

[lindenengineering]

Roy
In answer to your question on gas prices including diesel hit the search engine Google and punch in "Gas Prices USA".
Once in there hit CNN/Money and there you have it in all its Statewide variation.
Also hit the Flying J website. This is a chain of truck stops that sell diesel to all the big rigs going coast to coast, (hither 'n thither).

In Colorado its about $2.10 for regular petrol and $2.33 for "dizzle".(DERV). There is the taxless pink stuff but you can only get that at AG stores etc. Increasingly you can buy Biodiesel at about 20c more per gallon. We have offers to stock it providing we buy in 100 gallon increments. Since I/we don't have enough fireproof storage I don't keep high quantities of either fuel for sale on my shop premises. Incidently the US/UK Fire and Fuel regs are very similar in both countries. Strange I wonder why?

Just like the UK there is premium diesel that you will find at your local gas station whereas the truck stops use regular for the mostpart but do carry the now low sulphur fuels needed for the latest truck engines. As with most things prices can change overnight and drop without reason unlike the UK where from my experience once they go up they stay there. Gotta love the USA! Great stuff this competition.

Remember the US Gallon is smaller than the UK gallon (Queen Anne versus Victoria measure), although these days that seems somewhat irrelevant with litres now being the measure of choice over your side of the pond. The US Dollar calculation can be the "Official" or the dismal "tourist rate" that I saw recently in Leamington Spa $2.01 to a quid!

I suppose on a final note you should contemplate coming over for a visit and sample the place for yourself. However I warn & assure you once here this the place can be infectious country and you might not want to leave!
When I worked for Leyland Truck and Bus, I overheard a senior director say " We have lost three engineers to that place over there let's hope this Wiiliams fellow doesn't make it a fourth!
Guess what?
Best regards
Dennis

[Roy Gardiner]

< In Colorado its about $2.10 for regular petrol and $2.33 for "dizzle".(DERV). There is the taxless pink stuff but you can only get that at AG stores etc. Increasingly you can buy Biodiesel at about 20c more per gallon.>

That really makes owning a C3 or Pinz realistic then, I wouldn't bother with LPG conversion at those give-away prices, I see now why there's no maket for LPG stuff!

< Remember the US Gallon is smaller than the UK gallon (Queen Anne versus Victoria measure), although these days that seems somewhat irrelevant with litres now being the measure of choice over your side of the pond. The US Dollar calculation can be the "Official" or the dismal "tourist rate" that I saw recently in Leamington Spa $2.01 to a quid!>

Yes, I allowed for that in my prices statement, the dollar's recoverd a little over here today £1 = $1.71. I reckon this is just our revenge for all those years importing American bits and pieces for our bikes and offroad racers when the dollar price magically became the £ price, 1 for 1!

< I suppose on a final note you should contemplate coming over for a visit and sample the place for yourself. However I warn & assure you once here this the place can be infectious country and you might not want to leave! >

I've already been over there a couple of times on business Dennis - California (Irvine) and New York a few years back - and yes, they did offer me a job, I couldn't stay at that time unfortunately, but loved California and Nevada - where I tried to get to an offroad event at Carson Lake - only to find it wasn't near Carson City that had taken me 4 hours to drive to!. Nice drive back to Irvine though....it's a BIG country!

When I do come over there next year with my son Ben, we plan to drive across the States in our radical new 'nArrow' - a vehicle we're just putting into production (see my embryonic website for anyone interested in keeping traffic moving - a huge problem in Europe)

We will try and visit as many web friends as we can, so get the kettle ready!.

Roy

[PinzEOD]

When I do come over there next year with my son Ben, we plan to drive across the States in our radical new 'nArrow' - a vehicle we're just putting into production (see my embryonic website for anyone interested in keeping traffic moving - a huge problem in Europe)

VERY cool vehicle!!! Two questions : : Are you seeking approval for sales in the U.S.? And, of course, how much does it cost? I hope those more knowledgeable than I will jump in, but I do believe 3-wheel vehicles are registered as motorcycles in most states. I'm pretty sure they are in Nevada anyway. BTW your "embryonic" website looks pretty darn good to me. Perhaps soon we will need a new topic here for nArrows. Might you be coming through Las Vegas on your adventure?