Doetsch shocks

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rubicon4wheeler
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Post by rubicon4wheeler » Tue Jul 15, 2008 5:50 pm

Thanks for the phone number! I called and spoke with Carol, who is likely the same lady with whom you spoke.

Their part number 3166-A is designed specifically for the 4x4 and 6x6 Pinzgauer. It is to be mounted front and rear. And it is designed and valved to be oriented such that the shaft is up and the can is down.

Current pricing is $104.00 each, plus shipping from San Diego, CA. Since these are built-to-order, plan for a 4-6 week lead time. Alternately, any other Doestch Tech dealer (such as 4 Wheel Parts) ought to be able to order the shocks for you, or (preferrably) our forum sponsor Expedition Imports will likely have them in stock already: http://www.expeditionimports.zoovy.com/ ... Shock.html

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Profpinz
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Post by Profpinz » Tue Jul 15, 2008 6:14 pm

Hmmm... That's a pretty good price (especially now that the Australian Dollar is almost 1:1 with the US Dollar :D )
I may have to think about importing a set!
Peter

1974, 712 6X6 Pinzgauer
1983, 710-1.6 4X4 Pinzgauer
1997, 718 6X6 Pinzgauer (in pieces)
1971, 700 Haflinger
1974, 703 LWB Haflinger
2001, Range Rover

http://www.ozpinz.com

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ka
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Post by ka » Tue Jul 15, 2008 6:33 pm

why the 2 different reports from the factory? one person, bobi, says either way and then this carol says shaft up is the only right way?
1973 710m
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rubicon4wheeler
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Post by rubicon4wheeler » Tue Jul 15, 2008 6:47 pm

ka wrote:why the 2 different reports from the factory? one person, bobi, says either way and then this carol says shaft up is the only right way?
I can't say that I know. But I specifically asked, and Carol confirmed (as I heard her digging through her specifications book to check for me) what the correct orientation is.

Think about it: shock absorbers are almost always valved differently for compression and rebound travel - especially if it has been designed for a specific vehicle, as it was in this case. Therefore, if you reverse the orientation of the shock, you're screwing with its performance. If they wanted one oriented right-side-up and another oriented upside-down, then they would have different part numbers for the front and rear.

For what it's worth, shock absorbers are almost always oriented with the body down and the shaft up. These for the Pinzgauer are no different; they are "right-side-up."

I'm not trying to tell anyone how to install the shocks on their own vehicles; if anyone wants to mount them other than how the manufacturer says, that's fine with me. But for my own truck, I want it done the way the engineers designed it to work, so I called them, asked the questions I needed answered, and posted the info here in case anyone else wanted to know. Feel free to call Doetsch Tech yourself; Carol is very friendly and seemed happy to help.

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ka
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Post by ka » Tue Jul 15, 2008 7:04 pm

right on, rube - sounds like you got the truth of it. but i still dont see how gravity affects a shock. the valves are affected? i'm designing something with air springs right now (way diff, i know) and i know orientation is irrelavent.
1973 710m
"it is not in the best interest of the shepherd to breed smarter sheep." ~ author unknown

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rubicon4wheeler
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Post by rubicon4wheeler » Tue Jul 15, 2008 7:12 pm

ka wrote:right on, rube - sounds like you got the truth of it. but i still dont see how gravity affects a shock. the valves are affected? i'm designing something with air springs right now (way diff, i know) and i know orientation is irrelavent.
I'm sure an engineer who's familiar with the internal operation of a shock absorber could shed some more light on this, but I can give you one simple demonstration:

Take any standard hydraulic shock absorber, like a Rancho or Pro Comp. With it oriented with the shaft up and the body down, cycle it in and out and feel the smooth, consistent damping. Then turn it upside down and cycle it a couple times. Each time you do, you build up a bigger and bigger "dead spot" in the damping, where the shaft moves with significantly less resistance for a couple inches. It's as if air, rather than fluid, is flowing through the valve.

Thankfully, once you turn the shock right-side-up again and cycle it a couple times, proper damping is restored.

Perhaps this will help explain: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shock_absorber

I do know that some pressurized gas shocks do not demonstrate this behavior, but their valve's compression & rebound damping will still be reversed if installed upside-down.

*** EDIT ***

Here's some more information I just found on this page: http://www.monroe.com/tech_support/tec_ ... orbers.asp
Mono-tube design

These are high-pressure gas shocks with only one tube, the pressure tube. Inside the pressure tube there are two pistons: a dividing piston and a working piston. The working piston and rod are very similar to the twin tube shock design. The difference in actual application is that a mono-tube shock absorber can be mounted upside down or right side up and will work either way. In addition to its mounting flexibility, mono-tube shocks are a significant component, along with the spring, in supporting vehicle weight.

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ka
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Post by ka » Tue Jul 15, 2008 7:33 pm

that monroe link lays it right out. so what kind are these pinz shocks?
1973 710m
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pcolette
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Post by pcolette » Tue Jul 15, 2008 8:09 pm

The Doetsch shocks are mono-tube design also with one tube.

Obviously there is a difference from what Bobbi says and what Carol says at Doetsch. All I can say is that I've had my rear shocks mounted both rod end up and rod end down and have observed no difference in performance. I left them rod end down only to help keep dirt out of the tube (maybe).

If you look at the first photos on this thread from Jim L. you'll see his are also mounted the reverse from each other front and rear.

Not sure what any of this means other than they are a darn good shock and I'd recommend them to any other Pinz owner. Scott at EI does stock them for immediate delivery.

Paul C.
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'73 Swiss 710M
'89 Puch 230GE
2002 MB G500 (For Sale)

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russ
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Post by russ » Tue Jul 15, 2008 8:16 pm

So these shocks detect their orientation and damp correctly?

My Ranchos definitely do not. They must be installed right side up. Tried the other way, yes they do fit but they definitely do NOT dampen the bounce correctly.

My shocks dampen significantly less on compression and quite a bit more on extension.
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ExpeditionImports
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Post by ExpeditionImports » Tue Jul 15, 2008 8:17 pm

Hi Guys,

Figured I would drop in on this one.....

All of the tech information that I show orients the Doetsch shocks with the rod facing up. I have not tested this and do not know what the implications are of mounting them in the reversed position. I will double check with an engineer at Doetsch as sometimes the information from the front office may not be the best.

We have had 1 warranty claim so far out of 30 shocks. It was an installation problem as follows: Customer followed the manuals torque spec of 200NM (147.5 LB's) on the shock bolt. The inner bushing sleeve on the shock mushroomed at this torque. Upon calling Doetsch engineering they say that the sleeves are spec'd for a max of 100 ft lbs. We have been installing them to this spec. and have had no problems. A thicker wall bushing sleeve was discussed with Doetsch but they were not interested in pursuing it as they do not feel it is a problem.

Please make sure when you are comparing our price to that of the factory that you take into account the shipping and handling charges added into the price by Doetsch. They can add up.

Cheers,

Scott Ingham
Expedition Imports Corporation
Vallejo, California
www.expedition-imports.com
"You didn't buy a Chevy..." "Hows that Amazon tech support working out...."

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pcolette
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Post by pcolette » Tue Jul 15, 2008 9:00 pm

I forgot to add that the shocks I bought are the HV1 series, #HV1-3166A. I don't know what series they are currently building or if it makes any difference. Scott - maybe you could find out if there is any difference?

Thanks for your help.

Paul
Paul C.
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'73 Swiss 710M
'89 Puch 230GE
2002 MB G500 (For Sale)

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Anthony
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Post by Anthony » Wed Jul 16, 2008 3:39 am

Most Mono Tube Gas shock absorbers can be mounted in any orientation it makes no difference. Conventional twin tube designs have an orientation, that is with the body down and the rod up.
Anthony
GB

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ka
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Post by ka » Wed Jul 16, 2008 9:57 am

yes, that's what's explained on this page so well:

http://www.monroe.com/tech_support/tec_ ... orbers.asp
1973 710m
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Jim LaGuardia
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Post by Jim LaGuardia » Wed Jul 16, 2008 1:24 pm

These shocks work fine in either direction. The ride is superb, so dig out your cash and step up to the plate. I will never use Rancho's or Gabriels, or NAPA shocks again(they are bolt snappers). I will be getting a set of these for my 710 in the near future as my bolt breaking Rancho's are getting worn out :roll: Do you know how long it takes to remove a broken shock bolt?
It will be the best ride you ever had in a Pinz 8)
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Post by rubicon4wheeler » Wed Jul 16, 2008 1:33 pm

Jim LaGuardia wrote:These shocks work fine in either direction. The ride is superb, so dig out your cash and step up to the plate. I will never use Rancho's or Gabriels, or NAPA shocks again(they are bolt snappers). I will be getting a set of these for my 710 in the near future as my bolt breaking Rancho's are getting worn out :roll: Do you know how long it takes to remove a broken shock bolt?
It will be the best ride you ever had in a Pinz 8)
I have adjustable Rancho 9000's on my 710 right now and am already in love with the ride quality versus my previous solid-axle rockcrawlers. I can't wait to get a set of Doetsch Tech's from Expedition Imports and improve the ride and control even further.

Rancho's are very nice standard shocks. These Doetsch Tech's are in an entirely different class. :)

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