Track Bar/Broken Shock Bolt

ExpeditionImports · Post by **ExpeditionImports** » Sun Jan 11, 2009 1:37 pm

OK, lets get to the bottom of this because it is the FIRST complaint I have ever had on the Doetsch shocks.

#1 - You say it is improperly spec'd on the rear? Not rear and front? This would seem odd. 1.5" is a HUGE difference, and would break shocks/bolts every time.

#2 - What is the part number stamped on the shock? It is not uncommon for people to spec. there own shocks incorrectly and order from Doetsch not realizing there are Pinz specific shocks direct. (If you PM me the previous owner I can check and see if they came from us.)

#3 - Which style of shock are they? HV1 rebuildable, or the cheaper sealed (non-rebuildable) version?

#4 - What orientation are they mounted? There is some incorrect information out their that the HV1's can be mounted upside down...this is not correct and can lead to valving problems.

#5 - Can you please remove a shock and measure the fully compressed length, and fully extended length. Post it up here if you wouldn't mind.

Doetsch did the R&D on the Pinz shocks. They were provided new factory shocks and designed the valving specific to those shocks as well as lengths etc... Obviously it is in everyones best interest to get to the bottom of this. Considering we have sold about 120 of the Doetsch shocks with never a compression/extension problem, I'm a little suspect that something else may be at work on your truck.

Cheers,

Scott Ingham
Expedition Imports Corp.

Jim LaGuardia · Post by **Jim LaGuardia** » Sun Jan 11, 2009 1:59 pm

dokatd wrote: The previous owner of my truck used all thread that I broke almost immediatly understanding that the previous owner had already worked it a bit before I got to it. .

All thread is around 1/2 the strenth of the proper spec(8.8 )bolts

I have installed these shocks on several trucks with no problems.
The ride is awesome compared to the RS 5000's that I have on my 710M.

dokatd · Post by **dokatd** » Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:44 pm

Hey Scott, it's K.C. Carpenter

Didn't mean to sound like a jab. In truth I don't know where these came from. They are on shane pews old 712m. They are very new and are the rebuildable version shown on your site. There is a chance they came from Alex and his new comp. Bottom line is the body is way to long. I will get the specs off them later. But if you didn't sell them to shane then there is likely another issue. I made the poor assumption they came from you since shane talked about EI alot. Didn't really process that alex may be competing with you untill now. Apparently Alex did alot for shane was well. I was more or less curious if mine are the problem or if the standard shock spec was in error.

Jim, I was never saying the ride was bad and anyone who thinks all thread is a good substitute is a fool.

And just for good measure, I highly recomend Expedition Imports for all parts info etc. I have dealt with Scott for years and enjoy all transactions with him.

ExpeditionImports · Post by **ExpeditionImports** » Sun Jan 11, 2009 3:12 pm

Hi Casey,

So you made a jump from the Mogs into a Pinz. Foolish boy...I've seen how you wheel your Mogs.

Can't recall if Shane got them from us or not, but regardless it appears THERE IS A PROBLEM. We will be on the phone with Doetsch in the morning as it appears the shocks are not being built to spec. (What a nightmare.) I would like to see what they have to say.

Brian just did a visual comparison and we have posted the results here....again this is VERY preliminary. I will update everyone with more information as it becomes available.

http://www.expeditionimports.zoovy.com/ ... omparison/

Here is some visuals for those interested in following what we are discussing. This is the EXACT problem that we have with the Rancho shocks, compression is NOT enough. What is interesting to me here is it appears that it may just be an assembly error with the body length as the HV1 on my shelf has plenty of extension.

I don't take it as a jab in the least. We have always been "open source" and get annoyed with the "information whore" types. More than happy to desseminate what we find out. Our customers expect it.

Cheers,

Scott Ingham

dokatd · Post by **dokatd** » Sun Jan 11, 2009 3:20 pm

Shock measurements eye center to eye center

Comp. 13 3/4"
Ext. 20 5/8"

No part number that I can find. Where is it located Scott

pcolette · Post by **pcolette** » Sun Jan 11, 2009 3:26 pm

#4 - What orientation are they mounted? There is some incorrect information out their that the HV1's can be mounted upside down...this is not correct and can lead to valving problems.

Scott,

I purchased my HV1's direct from Doetsch before you were carrying them and they told me that they could be mounted either end up without a problem. Has this changed?

I have my front ones mounted with the rod end up as the other end will not fit thru the opening in the Pinz body. I guess this would be considered upside down? My rear shocks are installed with the rod end down.

I've had no problem with either front or rear but then I'm not very hard on them. Extremely happy with the ride.

Are you still carrying the cheaper non-rebuildable model? I'll be needing a set of shocks for the current project.

Paul

dokatd · Post by **dokatd** » Sun Jan 11, 2009 3:39 pm

Thanks for the investigation Scott. I know the answer you will get from doetsch. Won't be a fun issue to resolve non the less. Luckly though I still have my crawler 404.1. Since it's abilities far exceed that of even the most modded pinz. I got the pinz as a yard toy and some light daily driving.

dokatd · Post by **dokatd** » Sun Jan 11, 2009 4:16 pm

Sorry for the multiple posts. The proper compressed length for a factory stock 712m is 13". Optimum is 12 3/4". This allows for a little extra cushion on the bumpstop for overweight trucks or the accidental loss or failure of a bumpstop. Sadly even if doetsch says it's ok to bottom the shock, it's not going to resolve the problem of excessive forces on the lower shock bolts.

ExpeditionImports · Post by **ExpeditionImports** » Sun Jan 11, 2009 6:57 pm

Hi Paul,

I believe I posted this in a previous topic on the Doetsch. I am not sure who you spoke with, my guess is the office receptionist Carol who answers the phone, but if you speak with the engineers, they will tell you the shock is to be mounted body down, rod up. That is the same orientation that a vast majority of shocks are designed to be mounted.

Yes we are carrying both the HV1 and the non-rebuildable units. At this point we won't be selling the HV1's until we can assess what is going on.

Cheers,

Scott

ExpeditionImports · Post by **ExpeditionImports** » Sun Jan 11, 2009 7:02 pm

Hi Casey,

We have to keep in mind that even the factory had to deal with shock bolt failure issues even on military trucks equipped with the stock shocks. That is the reason that they re-designed the bolt/mount combination with a thru-bolt. The Swiss assessed the issue and chose not to retrofit. My guess was because they realized it wasn't an issue for how there trucks were being used.

We will see what happens.

Cheers,

Scott

dokatd · Post by **dokatd** » Sun Jan 11, 2009 9:56 pm

I agree Scott. It's a double edged sword. The ext. of the shock can be almost as brutal. This is amplified on the 712. The other part of the story is how long the lower bolt is as it goes through the limit strap and then the shock. An update to more modern racing limiting straps that mount more like say a seat belt would allow use of a far shorter lower bolt. This of course would severly reduce the fatigue on the lower bolts.

These are more typical of modern straps. And they would be able to handle far more uses than the factory Pinz straps. Plus they have a softer feel when they are pulled tight.

Erik712m · Post by **Erik712m** » Sun Jan 11, 2009 10:14 pm

John (springhill) replaced his limit straps with nylon last year he posted pic's and sources if you search under limit straps you'll find all the iformation.

pcolette · Post by **pcolette** » Sun Jan 11, 2009 11:30 pm

Hi Scott,

I spoke with Bobbi at Doetsch who I thought checked with the engineers but I'm not sure. Mine were built to use external reservoirs if I wanted to add them later but I doubt that has any effect on their orientation. Since your info is later then mine I'm going to flip over my rear shocks so the rod end is up like the front ones. I had replaced all the shock bolts at the same time so they shouldn't be too hard to remove.

I'll give you a call on the non-rebuildable shocks on Monday.

Thanks,
Paul

Buzz · Post by **Buzz** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 9:27 pm

Hi Gentlemen,
Since I started this particular thread with my problem I thought I should let you know I did end up drilling the mount and installing a long through-bolt. And as promised it was something of a bear. I finally ended up putting on a helmet to protect me from the times the 5/8ths bit grabbed and knocked me into the foot well under the truck!

BTW, pilot holes progressively expanded made it easier - but still a bear. Thanks to everyone for jumping in with info. - Buzz

Erik712m · Post by **Erik712m** » Wed Jan 14, 2009 9:44 pm

buzz, Glad you finished.. Can you post the bolt length. So those of us that use search tool can look it up before we head to the parts house.