Pics or it didn't happen!

Foz · Post by **Foz** » Fri Feb 27, 2009 8:07 pm

So what's the deal - no pics of the new EFI or the baby Jesus will cry?

todds112 · Post by **todds112** » Fri Feb 27, 2009 8:34 pm

Surely one of the owners of the successful installations is a member here. Aren't they anxious to post up pics and reviews of their newly fuel injected Pinz?

Did they have to sign a confidentiality agreement to purchase?

Jim LaGuardia · Post by **Jim LaGuardia** » Fri Feb 27, 2009 10:45 pm

Who knows

You can always drool over my system pic's some more:D
By the way I can put whole running kits together with a deposit.
Basic Beck injection with EMS Stinger computer, as low as $3600.
That is Hardware(manifold and trigger wheel,throttle body) fittings, computer, Used coil pack and module(saves $140) finished harness, fuel line, clamps, pump, filters, injectors, sensors, and narrow band 02 sensor. Unit is pre-loaded with good running maps with most temp comps.

MASSIVE PINZ · Post by **MASSIVE PINZ** » Sun Mar 01, 2009 12:32 pm

Thats a good price on Jim's system.

Several of my systems are being installed now and I am sure that pics will make their way here onto the forum.

EvanH · Post by **EvanH** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 5:24 pm

Any more news on this thread?

At the last installment, Erik suddenly became quieter than a DEA agent at a Mexican drug cartel convention.

I'm personally interested in trying individual throttle bodies from a motorcycle application. If anyone knows if this would either be a stupid idea or a great idea, let me know!

-Evan

MASSIVE PINZ · Post by **MASSIVE PINZ** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:01 pm

In total 4 trucks are now running with the system installed. One of them is fully tuned and another is really close.

Erik worked through some issues with the kit and also now has his truck on the road but still has a few bugs to work out and a tad more tuning..

The motorcycle throttle bodies are a cool idea... It wasn't well accepted when I mentioned it here in 2006, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't work well.

pinztrek · Post by **pinztrek** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 10:58 pm

EvanH wrote:Any more news on this thread?
I'm personally interested in trying individual throttle bodies from a motorcycle application. If anyone knows if this would either be a stupid idea or a great idea, let me know!
-Evan

Honda style Independent Throttle Bodies (ITB) was the approach I was headed down before Herbert perfected our current intake/plenum approach. They are minuature Jenvy style setups which are nicely sized for something like the pinz engine. (same general airflow & hp)

Using the motorcyle throttle bodies can be done, and I have a set of Honda throttle bodies with injectors to play with. Challenge is fitting it in the space required if you are trying to use the existing intakes and adopting to the carb flanges. I found a way to do it, but would have required modifying the oil filler tube. Not a big deal, but Herbert's plenum design was much cleaner and works well.

ITB will always give you the best (snappiest) throttle response and pretty much eliminates any chance of air-flow imbalance that plagues many of the alternatives. You do have more of a chance of wet-runner since the injectors would be several inches away from the valve, but pooling is not an issue in the pinz. Icing in cold weather could still be an issue.

If someone is interested in playing with ITB's I'll sell my Honda setup with a pair of waterjet cut carb flanges. Just figure out the plumbing between the two and you'll be set! They have become more expensive on ebay as folks have figured out how to use them.

Last I heard from Erik his truck was running, but he was working through how to interface to the factory air cleaner. Herbert has shared the approach we use, and it sounds like most of the folks are headed down that path.

Erik was also exploring smaller throttle bodies like we use as he was seeing classic oversize throttle body syndrome- effective wide open throttle at 1/3 opening.

Hopefully he'll get his install sorted and post some results.

Have fun,

Alan

Erik712m · Post by **Erik712m** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 5:59 pm

My kit is up and running and running pretty good. I got in new spark plug wires from Scott, as my check engine light came on the other day. I have been impressed with SDS their tech support will go out of there way to help.
As Alan mentioned I'm playing around with throttle bodies and a few other items. I would like to have his unstoppable idle. By far EFI is a huge improvement over carbs. If Jake doesn't mind I could post a few pics It's up to him.

MASSIVE PINZ · Post by **MASSIVE PINZ** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 6:57 pm

Erik, Feel free to post your pics. Glad the system is working out for you.

Erik712m · Post by **Erik712m** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 7:56 pm

Pic's are old I'll try and up date in the next couple of days.

pinztrek · Post by **pinztrek** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 9:07 pm

Hello Erik,

Think I see part of your throttle sensitivity issue..... your bellcrank on the throttle rods are unequal in length. (Third photo, the gold T shaped pivot point) You are getting about 2x throttlebody movement compared to the rod from the pedal to the bellcrank. (hard to explain)

It is essentially "amplifying" the amount of throttle rod movement unless the photo is misleading.

Given that the throttle body flow increases exponentially as you open it, I could see how you'd have controllability issues.

You may be able to rotate the bellcrank clockwise and use the current spring post as the one going to the throttle body. That would get the ratio reversed. You might have to bend/lengthen the rod to the throttle body.

Another way would be to lengthen the crank arm (or larger pulley) on the throttle body.

For what it's worth, I have considered putting in a bellcrank to reduce throttle travel, and we are 1:1 currently (on the throttle linkages).

But a properly sized throttle body is preferable and you'd want to setup your linkages so the throttle body was almost full open as the pedal hits the floor. IE: just under 90 degrees of opening.

If you can datalog, watch your MAP (vacuum) to see how much throttle opening it takes before you approach atmospheric pressure. If your TB is oversized you'll see it at 1/4-1/3 throttle.

Looks like you are making progress! Keep us up to date!

Alan

MASSIVE PINZ · Post by **MASSIVE PINZ** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 9:10 pm

I didn't see that the first time, but after Alan mentioned it it does make sense...

This throttle body size worked very well in my truck and Herber's Pickle uses the same one and I think Alan will agree that it drives exceptionally well..

Erik712m · Post by **Erik712m** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 9:19 pm

[quote="pinztrek"]Hello Erik,

Think I see part of your throttle sensitivity issue..... your bellcrank on the throttle rods are unequal in length. (Third photo, the gold T shaped pivot point) You are getting about 2x throttlebody movement compared to the rod from the pedal to the bellcrank. (hard to explain)

It is essentially "amplifying" the amount of throttle rod movement unless the photo is misleading.

Given that the throttle body flow increases exponentially as you open it, I could see how you'd have controllability issues.

You may be able to rotate the bellcrank clockwise and use the current spring post as the one going to the throttle body. That would get the ratio reversed. You might have to bend/lengthen the rod to the throttle body.

Another way would be to lengthen the crank arm (or larger pulley) on the throttle body.

For what it's worth, I have considered putting in a bellcrank to reduce throttle travel, and we are 1:1 currently (on the throttle linkages).

But a properly sized throttle body is preferable and you'd want to setup your linkages so the throttle body was almost full open as the pedal hits the floor. IE: just under 90 degrees of opening.

If you can datalog, watch your MAP (vacuum) to see how much throttle opening it takes before you approach atmospheric pressure. If your TB is oversized you'll see it at 1/4-1/3 throttle.

Erik712m · Post by **Erik712m** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 9:24 pm

Alan Jake, Correct the reason I went to the bell crank was with the 60mm throttle. Was my pedal only travels 1 1/16" and the 60 mm traveled 1 1/2" (may not be correct length but you'll under stand) and I could never get the computer to read full throttle with the supplied throttle body could be do to the throttle wheel, I don't know. Now that I'm down to what you two have. I probably could use the cable but the way I'm set up now. I 'm starting to like the bell crank zero drag and I still can use my hand cable to set cruise. I'll just have to make adjustments With the pivot lengths.

pinztrek · Post by **pinztrek** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 10:01 pm

Erik712m wrote: Alan Correct the reason I went to the bell crank was with the 60mm throttle was my pedal only travels 1 1/16" and the 60 mm traveled 1 1/2" (may not be correct length but you'll under stand) and I could never get the computer to read full throttle with the 60 mm throttle body.

Is there not a way to calibrate the TPS (throttle position sensor) in the SDS controller?. On ours we can set what TPS setting below which is considered idle and above which is WOT.

In a MAP based system most of what you want the TPS for is your acceleration shot, which is normally based on relative movement and speed of change. It's not an absolute position thing. If you have functions which are activated at idle or wot you need "absolute" TPS readings.

Now that I'm down to 47 mm I probably could use the cable but the way I'm set up now I could go to a closer to a 1:1 set up. But I 'm starting to like the bell crank zero drag and I still can use my hand cable to set cruise.

The 47mm should be in the ballpark until you add superchargers & NOS.

It's still a bit large, but glad it worked out for you. For reference- 200hp 3.5-4 liter OEM engines use 47mm TB's. Several 100-120hp engines use 42mm.

Did you have to change your tuning with the smaller throttle body? Really should not be much difference if you are a MAP based system. If you are speed-density using the TPS, it could make a big difference.

I will be trying smaller once the weather get's nice, primarily to increase throttle movement to reach WOT. At pinz hp/rpm the pressure drop difference between a 47mm and the smaller one is almost unmeasurable.

But sounds like you are making progress every day!

Will you be bringing to Atlanta? (If they schedule a Steel soldiers rally)

Alan