Trials course or Proving Ground design

Postings/pictures/video about off-road fun in Real 4x4's. (European-centric 4x4's)
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McCall Pinz
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Trials course or Proving Ground design

Post by McCall Pinz »

A friend, and forum lurker, started his trials course and we're interested in building this just to the limits of the trucks. I can't really afford to roll my truck, but want a challenge. So I'm asking if anybody has measured the abilities of their Pinzgauers? Using a clinometer app on my phone, the angle into the pit and out of the pit are -29 degrees and +28 degrees at the moment. That's not really a challenge for the trucks with lockers on, but certainly plenty of pucker factor for the driver the first time. The side slope is 23 to 24 degrees and it doesn't look bad in the pictures, but its sketchy when sitting inside. Its hard to see, but the "holes & bumps" are pretty fun for the teeter-totter factor in our trucks. The manual just says "to the adhesion limits of the tyres" which makes sense, but what have you seen in real life?
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Holes&bumps2.JPG
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Last edited by McCall Pinz on Thu Sep 11, 2014 4:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Jimm391730
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Re: Trials course or Proving Ground design

Post by Jimm391730 »

I swear I was at 45 degrees sideslope in a stock 710M with 9 people in it! Individual trucks will vary due to roof racks (more weight on top), widened rims/tires, etc. I've seen a 712M attempt a concrete ramp and been well over 50 degrees nose up before the tires (and driver) lost their grip! 710s will generally do better uphill than down unless they have weight in the far rear.

My nine foot tall 712W (see avatar) routinely hits 30 degrees on the inclinometer when cornering, but I wouldn't want to go much beyond that. This is with the skylight box, exoskeleton, etc. for weight up top but it also has widened rims which make a whole lot of difference to the tipping comfort zone.

But eventually you will find that 30 degrees up and down or 25 degrees side slope become almost comfortable as you learn the capabilities of the trucks and begin to listen, hear and feel the feedback from them. Then you will have the confidence to go further. Learning this requires that you gradually go further -- don't do it in big increments! And when safe and possible, you would want to know how your truck feels both empty and with a load of people, too. After all, that is the most important aspect -- to keep your passengers safe. Damage to truck and injury to driver are self inflicted, but passengers deserve and expect better.
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Re: Trials course or Proving Ground design

Post by krick3tt »

I have one of those little gages that tell the side tip but when tipped and on the move I have not looked at it. 30 deg is not much on the move when concentrating on the trails. The gage is left over from the Mog and it would often go much farther than I was comfortable with. Same with the pinz. Some day I'll check it :roll:
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McCall Pinz
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Re: Trials course or Proving Ground design

Post by McCall Pinz »

Jimm391730 wrote:30 degrees up and down or 25 degrees side slope become almost comfortable as you learn the capabilities of the trucks and begin to listen, hear and feel the feedback from them. Then you will have the confidence to go further. Learning this requires that you gradually go further


Yep, this is exactly the point of the course- push the limits of the driver and eventually the vehicle while in a safe spot. I know I've been steeper in all three directions, but want to measure it- slowly. Last time I was on a side slope with a 400' drop and 24 degree side slope- Next time I don't want to learn that 25 degrees was the limit... I think we're going to shape several different lines 30, 40, 45, etc.
PS- both trucks are on stock wheels, but with wider tires.
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TechMOGogy
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Re: Trials course or Proving Ground design

Post by TechMOGogy »

Just for interests sake
TD (note trailer):
Pinz Side Testing.jpg
Pinz Side Testing.jpg (105.04 KiB) Viewed 6585 times
710 forklift (bit crazy on those slick floors!):
Pinz Side Testing2.jpg
Pinz Side Testing2.jpg (86.18 KiB) Viewed 6585 times
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VinceAtReal4x4s
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Re: Trials course or Proving Ground design

Post by VinceAtReal4x4s »

Side slope ability is going to vary. A 710K wont do what an M will do. Add a 400lb external cage and that's 400 more lbs trying to pull the top over. Terrain matters- Slick rock or concrete will allow a Pinz to hit around 40 degrees or so but change that to shale or mud and you have to consider momentum from even the slightest slippage which will quickly cause a roll-over at that angle. Add a slight turn in the track and that will cause more variables.

Very few manufactures have printed safe operating side slope angles but Land Rover once had 40 degrees mentioned in an obscure ad I saw from the 70's (the series Rovers are super stable and have aluminum tops). The G-class sits at 45 comfortably with a great, low center of gravity. The H1 Hummer and some Unimogs will sit at 50+; I had a Swiss 404 at about 50 once.

Most people can't handle anything over 25-30 unless they are somewhat experienced, because it just feels wrong to the human body. It took me some years of getting a feel for the tip over point but I got my first SIII Rover to regularly hit 45 and I've been hitting limits ever since. I've had a C303 at 40-45 in Moab, which is does pretty well.

The Pinz is harder to get cozy in for side slope due to the suspension. Live axles don't offer up surprises at angles like that, unlike independent. When you introduce a cross axle situation with a 20+ degree side slope, like might happen when crossing a stream bed or a water run-off ditch on a mountain trail, the Pinz handles this the worst of any 4x4 I have driven since this is where you need suspension flex and longer wheelbase. The 712 handles this kind of thing much better than a 710. A 710K will roll over in a second given that scenario.

I've probably hit 65-70 degrees going up before in a Pinz... for a short period.
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McCall Pinz
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Re: Trials course or Proving Ground design

Post by McCall Pinz »

All great info- keep it coming. I'm pretty sure I've climbed about 45 in local soils. Descending steeper than 35 freaks me out when you approach the bottom "approach angle". But, the side slope definitely has me spooked the most for all the reasons mentioned- remember the old Corvair and VW swing axle problems? When the outside is weighted, the axles tend to "tuck under" "Unsafe at any speed" Another local guy rolled a 712 down a hillside when several passengers climbed out of the uphill side when they panic-ed. More and more reasons to do this in a controlled environment.
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David Dunn
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Re: Trials course or Proving Ground design

Post by David Dunn »

Static side slope angles may be impressive, but don't mean anything since the angle are obtain by moving the slope. Hillside angles will vary because of terrain and kinetic energy can toss a vehicle over long before the maximum "safe" side slope angle is reached.. Several of us are familiar with people that have put their Pinz on the side on a flat road, and went over from a pothole...
Even a loose surface can cause the vehicle to slide sideways on a slope and when it hits firm ground, the recoil of the suspension from side to side (kinetic energy) can roll a vehicle over.
Many Pinzes I've seen on the ITO club were slow motion and gently laid down.

A long time ago, Jim and I were on a trail ride that came to a long downhill with a lot of random ruts and very loose top soil, I had a RR at the time that I felt comfortable with the decent, but questioned the sanity in 710 because the engine would accelerate downhill and the brakes needed to keep the speed down... the terrain was not good for any use of brakes, and the 710 would lose adhesion and slide with any use of the brakes and the acceleration would have disastrous with the potholes

Though I haven't seen the pic in a long time (and removed from the factory website), there was a pic of a Supacat ATMP on a LARGE boulder driving across the sideslope. IIRC, 60° was the listed max.. totally insane, and at that point, you're relying on adhesion.

If you look carefully at the 716 pic, the front right tire is already a couple inches off the ground... and TDs don't have check straps :shock:
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edzz
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Re: Trials course or Proving Ground design

Post by edzz »

David Dunn wrote:If you look carefully at the 716 pic, the front right tire is already a couple inches off the ground... and TDs don't have check straps :shock:

I'm in total agreement with your post David. What I'm trying to figure out is what the load in the bed of the 716 is, sure looks like that truck is laden to me.
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David Dunn
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Re: Trials course or Proving Ground design

Post by David Dunn »

edzz wrote:
David Dunn wrote:If you look carefully at the 716 pic, the front right tire is already a couple inches off the ground... and TDs don't have check straps :shock:

I'm in total agreement with your post David. What I'm trying to figure out is what the load in the bed of the 716 is, sure looks like that truck is laden to me.
The 716 will sit the same, either loaded or empty. They have an automatic air suspension in the rear. But there appears to be a shelter tied on top of the 716's canvas, and taunt straps to the top of the 716 and the trailer to the platform... The trailer also looks like a Sankey Mk3, and not a Pinzgauer
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edzz
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Re: Trials course or Proving Ground design

Post by edzz »

David Dunn wrote:
edzz wrote:
David Dunn wrote:If you look carefully at the 716 pic, the front right tire is already a couple inches off the ground... and TDs don't have check straps :shock:

I'm in total agreement with your post David. What I'm trying to figure out is what the load in the bed of the 716 is, sure looks like that truck is laden to me.
The 716 will sit the same, either loaded or empty. They have an automatic air suspension in the rear. But there appears to be a shelter tied on top of the 716's canvas, and taunt straps to the top of the 716 and the trailer to the platform... The trailer also looks like a Sankey Mk3, and not a Pinzgauer

Laden was possibly the wrong term, I was referring to what you have identified as a possible shelter.

Side slopes have spooked me ever since having my Series III decided it was nap time on Cougar Mountain.
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David Dunn
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Re: Trials course or Proving Ground design

Post by David Dunn »

It had to be a bad slope to get a S3 on it's side. :lol:
Aaah, it brings back memories of my S3 and having it in places I shouldn't.. :P
Which were better than where I had taken my old Micro Bus.... nothing like being a teenager and think you're invincible. :roll:
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TechMOGogy
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Re: Trials course or Proving Ground design

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Re: Trials course or Proving Ground design

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72 Pathfinder | 75 710M 2.7i | 96 350GDT Worker
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Re: Trials course or Proving Ground design

Post by krick3tt »

Yes very cool...the little orange net is to catch parts that fall off?
Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him:
better take a closer look at the American Indian.---Henry Ford
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