Some questions for a new comer

[David Dunn]

Well Redman,
this is where the discussion would end, TD Pinzes started well after the Volvo cab forward ended. This question is more for the gas Pinzers , many of them never venture into the TD sections. And I never had an interest in a Volvo more than a few seconds... then it passed . If I'm not mistaken, there were far more TD Pinzes made than the Volvo FCs, but at least they were all LHD, which might put the total LHD 716/18 into the minority.

Dave if you can get a Canadian G I will trade you my Pinz and Hafi
Anyways, a G is better than a J**P was my point

Does the phrase “when hell freezes over" mean anything to you
And I would have thought you'd make that offer plus with the banana G for GG

There is no doubt the build quality is far better... but there are parking lots where I'd leave my Jeep and never worry about door dings and shopping cart bashes
I wouldn't be so 'happy go lucky' with a G

PS for Dave: whatever you do, DON't drive a G...or you will have to own one!
Seriously

Well Dan, it has been 16 months since I got anything new for my garage… it’s usually an every 6 month trek. But I really, really do like my American mid size truck with the diesel.

I did pull out a Stewart & Stevenson G-Wagen brochure…. Much cooler than what Mercedes-Benz has to offer.. So it looks like I would want a G270 CDI LWB … don’t see a check box for PW/PDL, but do have a choice of up to B7 ballistics, and what do you know it has the same W5 A 580 trans as my JKU ! ( at least one thing good came out of the Mercedes / Chrysler fiasco ).. so now I got to put a picture of one under my pillow and wish it to my doorstep

[pinzi]

Here we go Again......had That question asked manny times.....but for me the pinz is the winner.
Why.... better peformance off road, lighter, closser turning circle, more power at low rpms .
The Volvo drives great dont get me wrong and might be less noise when driving....but you always get the feeling your driving something big and heavy......you dont feel That in a pinz. The Volvo is verry relible but so is the pinz, both have lockers front and rear the volvo straight axles the pinz independent...the Volvo leef springs the pinz coil.....both portal boxes...volvo b30 6 cyl pinz 2.5 aircoold flat 4 cyl the volvo high rpms ro get somewhere...the pinz more torq at low rpms......so yes they are close and its more a matter of what YOU Like i geus.

The Diesel pinzgauers....you cant compere these to a petrol pinz nor a Volvo....they are just better .

I know...i have a 710m a 710k a 716k and had the c303 and tgb1111.

[redman333]

Here we go Again......had That question asked manny times.....but for me the pinz is the winner.
Why.... better peformance off road, lighter, closser turning circle, more power at low rpms .
The Volvo drives great dont get me wrong and might be less noise when driving....but you always get the feeling your driving something big and heavy......you dont feel That in a pinz. The Volvo is verry relible but so is the pinz, both have lockers front and rear the volvo straight axles the pinz independent...the Volvo leef springs the pinz coil.....both portal boxes...volvo b30 6 cyl pinz 2.5 aircoold flat 4 cyl the volvo high rpms ro get somewhere...the pinz more torq at low rpms......so yes they are close and its more a matter of what YOU Like i geus.

The Diesel pinzgauers....you cant compere these to a petrol pinz nor a Volvo....they are just better .

I know...i have a 710m a 710k a 716k and had the c303 and tgb1111.

Well I do like the idea of coil springs in the rear versus the leafs. The engine seems like it may be better in the Volvo for a higher potential output, being that its a 6 versus 4cyl. Am I wrong in assuming this. I'm talking building the motor using a bitt higher performance parts. Also looks like the Volvo has a liquid cooled motor which could be nice in providing heat.

Price point wise, are they any cheaper? My thoughts were maybe the Volvo is a bit cheaper for the 6x6 variant.

Also I have yet to find any Volvos for sale anywhere.


My thoughts on the pinz is this I really want the 718K but the price puts it out of range for me. So if I went pinz then the 712K would be the one for me. My big issue is that I would want AC and heat and these both would have to be add ons later. I also have a concern on engine power. I plan to use this for an overland rig so it could get pretty heavy. Will a 712K pinz be able to handle the weight without issue.

[David Dunn]

Apples and oranges, again. 712s and 718s both have leaf springs in the rear

Only the 710 and 716 are coiled springs at all 4 corners, and the 716 also have a air spring suspension at the rear as well.

Something to keep in mind , military vehicles are power matched to the payload they haul, especially Euro MVs. Which translate to most American considering them underpowered. Putting more power to them usually leaves some else lacking..... starting with brakes which were borderline already. iirc, the Pinz drivetrain was designed for a max of 130fpt +/-, and even with the 89 hp engine, people have managed to twist and brake an outer axle housings on a Pinz.
There were lots of "thought" changes within military circles from the 60/70s to the more modern designs of the '80s and beyond.

[Jimm391730]

I plan to use this for an overland rig so it could get pretty heavy. Will a 712K pinz be able to handle the weight without issue.

My 712W weighs in at roughly 8,000 pounds (3636kg) "normally" and for an extended trip might have an additional 5-600 lbs of water, fuel, food, gear, etc. but it still does a good job navigating most trails (even trails that have caused serious damage on lesser vehicles). Part of all that weight is the box which might be 1500-2,000 pounds all by itself. Interestingly, the ride from the rear with the leaf springs is amazingly smoother than the front, even with coils up there.

I had considered the 6x6 Volvo but it seems that parts availability can be difficult.

[Brady 712k]

I'd like to add....
don't forget most of the 712k's have gas heaters in them. They are newer espakas gas heaters and can be used while the vehicle is off.... my pinz was a recent Austrian military release the heat that comes off the engine is fairly substantial. In 30 degree temps I had the heat at 80 or so for 3 days straight and it used very little gas!

[redman333]

I'd like to add....
don't forget most of the 712k's have gas heaters in them. They are newer espakas gas heaters and can be used while the vehicle is off.... my pinz was a recent Austrian military release the heat that comes off the engine is fairly substantial. In 30 degree temps I had the heat at 80 or so for 3 days straight and it used very little gas!

Well that is nice to know. I work on heavy duty trucks(semi trucks) and some of them have diesel heaters for when the driver is parked taking a nap and some don't work that well and are not very reliable. Some of them are great though.

Since I want to use this vehicle for camping it would be pretty nice to have that heater.

[redman333]

So it seems the general consensus here is to not swap motors and mess with the truck that much.

Someone above had mentioned that messing with the power plant too much will result in issues elsewhere and I do agree with this. While I'm not trying to get more power because I'm wanting to get to 60mph faster I would like to be able to hit about 80mph minimum and max. Have absolutely no need to go any faster and most of the time will be under this but some hwys are 70mph and would like to option to keep up with traffic when they are doing 10 over. Honestly this is a deal breaker for me to buying the vehicle. Everything else I'm fine with.

My question again, can the gearing be changed or maybe perhaps the engine enhanced a bit or a turbo added to the engine to get the power needed to run 80mph. Now this also has to be a reliable power added as I don't want to be breaking down because of the extra power added. If I can get away with the 712K and maybe just add a turbo or something thatd be nice since they are cheaper. I feel like this would be possible but not that familiar with them. I'm also new to air cooled engines.

[rmel]

Honestly, deal breaker more like a life breaker, don't even think of 70Mph.

Never mind the wear and tear on the portals etc. with the brakes on the
Gasers you will be on top of the car in front of you before you stop or eating
the tail gate of a big rig in front of you Being top heavy you also better
hope you stop in a straight line. The 716/718's have disk brakes and have
better top end but IMHO >65 is not what these rigs were designed for.

Now as far as mod's go. The trani in a Gaser can be replaced with the TD
version of the ZF tranie, that kind'a moves you up about 1/2 a gear. But
you will also need to boost HP and Torque, that would req. the 2.7L conversion
and a Cam change. While your at it you might also want to toss in EFI. A
considerable investment to get you in the ballpark of a whopping 120hp but
a considerable inprovement on low end torque -- which is nice for crawling.

Being in the Bay Area, most interesting places for me to wheel are 200 to 400
miles away. So lots of HWY driving. Although I do have all the mods above, in
my 710K, to be honest, my best friend on the HWY are the big rigs, which I
draft behind staying between 55 to 60 Mph. That feels comfortable to me and
the Pinz'y. Even with 2.7L + EFI any grade of significance your going to find
yourself in 3'rd gear So even goosed up, if your in mountain territory plan
on your average speed will be closer to 50Mph -- you got to get to enjoy that
or you may be aiming at the wrong rig

[redman333]

Honestly, deal breaker more like a life breaker, don't even think of 70Mph.

Never mind the wear and tear on the portals etc. with the brakes on the
Gasers you will be on top of the car in front of you before you stop or eating
the tail gate of a big rig in front of you Being top heavy you also better
hope you stop in a straight line. The 716/718's have disk brakes and have
better top end but IMHO >65 is not what these rigs were designed for.

Now as far as mod's go. The trani in a Gaser can be replaced with the TD
version of the ZF tranie, that kind'a moves you up about 1/2 a gear. But
you will also need to boost HP and Torque, that would req. the 2.7L conversion
and a Cam change. While your at it you might also want to toss in EFI. A
considerable investment to get you in the ballpark of a whopping 120hp but
a considerable inprovement on low end torque -- which is nice for crawling.

Being in the Bay Area, most interesting places for me to wheel are 200 to 400
miles away. So lots of HWY driving. Although I do have all the mods above, in
my 710K, to be honest, my best friend on the HWY are the big rigs, which I
draft behind staying between 55 to 60 Mph. That feels comfortable to me and
the Pinz'y. Even with 2.7L + EFI any grade of significance your going to find
yourself in 3'rd gear So even goosed up, if your in mountain territory plan
on your average speed will be closer to 50Mph -- you got to get to enjoy that
or you may be aiming at the wrong rig

So I've seen videos of the td pinz(718) going 120kph which is roughly 75mph. This is ok with me as well. Other then brakes is there a differnce in the td pinz and the gassers that would allow this. What's the reason for the instability on these. Top heavyness? I thought I had seen somewhere here that the disc brakes can be swapped to the older gassers. This would be something I would do if it's possible. Also I already plan on swapping to EFI since I can't stand carbs. On a diet but the stability issue could cause a problem for me. I guess I'm not really liking the idea of just getting used to 60mph nor am I ready to give up on this rig for our familiy as it checks all the boxes for us except this one nagging issue.


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[TechMOGogy]

Go find someone with a 710 or 712
Drive it
Now try to get it up to 100km/h and see how comfortable you feel. Now imagine your whole family is with you, sitting in the back of it and see how comfortable you feel.
A diesel will not be significantly better
Either learn to drive 55 miles per hour or less or buy something else, not trying to be mean, just honest and the only way you will know is if you go drive one.
100km/h in my 710M is not a nice easy, sit back and relax drive - you have to be watching constantly for people around you, conditions around you, listening to the truck and what is going on plus the truck vibrates,etc
My truck has the upgraded 2.7 with reground cam, EFI, balanced driveshaft, 33" tires, power steering, etc etc
They are not meant to drive like a modern SUV
Good luck with your hunt!

[redman333]

Go find someone with a 710 or 712
Drive it
Now try to get it up to 100km/h and see how comfortable you feel. Now imagine your whole family is with you, sitting in the back of it and see how comfortable you feel.
A diesel will not be significantly better
Either learn to drive 55 miles per hour or less or buy something else, not trying to be mean, just honest and the only way you will know is if you go drive one.
100km/h in my 710M is not a nice easy, sit back and relax drive - you have to be watching constantly for people around you, conditions around you, listening to the truck and what is going on plus the truck vibrates,etc
My truck has the upgraded 2.7 with reground cam, EFI, balanced driveshaft, 33" tires, power steering, etc etc
They are not meant to drive like a modern SUV
Good luck with your hunt!

My feelings aren't hurt by any means. I'd rather everyone here be "mean" truthful about the experience because I want to know before getting into this what it's all about.

Also I'm not trying to be argumentative either but I do believe you when you say it's hard to control as I ha e driven military vehicles on the road before. They are fine when in the middle of the desert and have nothing around you but when you have to watch for other cars and stay between the lines it instantly becomes much more stressful. Now there were a lot of reasons why those military vehicles I drove rode this way though and most could be remedied and some not. This is the reason I ask these questions. I completely believe you when you say it's dangerous or stressful or down right scary to drive at high speeds. My question more is why is it this way. Is it a lack of components, play in components, either by design or age of them. By knowing why I may be able to figure out a way to remedy the issue.

I like problem solving. So right now I feel the problem is the handling of this rig. Can it be fixed? Maybe, maybe not but I'd like to figure that out.




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[Jimm391730]

I second everything that RMEL said about highway driving - in general, he and I both have the same upgraded engine (2.7l conversion, EFI, etc.) for more power plus the TD tranny. Our difference is that he has a 710K and I have a 712W. Yes, I've hit 75mph (downhill with a tailwind) just to say I've done it but like Ron I prefer to find a semi doing in the low 60's and just follow along.

Remember, these are TRUCKS, not an auto or sports car. You would have almost double the energy doing 80mph as 60mph; the brakes have to do almost twice the work and dissipate twice the energy to stop from 80 as 60. I think you will find that most owners will accept that 60 is reasonably safe if you make sure to allow sufficient following distance (where "sufficient" means 4-5 times more distance than common in a car) but I'd want 3-4 times more distance still if I was doing 80; even if I could do 80 (I can't), I wouldn't.

Handling is basically fixed due to the swing arm suspension (which works so well off road). You can work on springs, shocks, wheels and tires but it won't handle any better than the truck it is. But I can say that replacing the original bias ply Maloya tires with more modern radials was like night and day - it felt (in comparison) like a sports car, but it still isn't one...

And because of the gearing in the hubs and the differential gearing, the main driveshaft (which is longer than most vehicles, and prone to imbalance) is turning over 4,000 rpm at 60 and 5,300 rpm at 80 -- the phrase "Captain, she's going to blow any second!" comes to mind. Even with my lightened and balanced driveshaft I get some uncomfortable harmonics above about 63mph (and virtually nothing below that speed).

You can do anything you want, but it sounds like you would need to spend almost double (or more) to even attempt to make a Pinz be what you would want it to be; and even then it won't be what you want.

[rmel]

Another way to look at this is stability. Static Stability Factor is a standard
way to look at this. A Jeep Wrangler is 1.2, a Camero is 1.5 and a Pinz is in
the ballpark of 1.0. It's a trade-off for clearance. You don't get 14" of
clearance and narrow track without giving something up. The Pinz'y just
has a high center of gravity. You can nudge that SSF up somewhat with
wheel spacers to increase track and smaller diameter tires, but that may get
you to 1.1 at best. You can ask around now many on the forum have had
thier Pinz gone narcoleptic on them -- rolled over and went to sleep on the
trail Well that same rig to 65+

[David Dunn]

Respectfully Redman
From what you wrote, you should look to something other than a Pinzgauer for high speed family trips. You are not going to find a Pinz with a sustainable speed in the 70’s,and if you did, any mechanical failure at those speeds would be disastrous, a gas Pinz more so with their drum brakes.. I keep thinking back to the early 2000's and a 710M that had a car pull out in front of them and the Pinz lost control and rolled, killing a child.

Yes,the last 716 and 718 UK made Pinzes are rated for a max of 75mph, and I have seen mine go pass that on GPS ( a flashing red number is discerning ), and it wasn’t from trying to see how fast it could go, but rather the truck crept up along the traffic flow. I like to run the truck at 58 to 63 mph. Also my engine is still breaking in at 1700 original miles and I don’t like to hold rpm’s constant.

As for the other posters today, none have (or driven to my knowledge) a TD Pinz, and some of their comparison are in line with comparing a 1966 Porsche 911 with a 1980 one. So many statements do not equally apply. The TDs have very good disc brakes, their track is wider than the 710/12, longer wheelbases, the driveshaft is 1 piece… too many people think a TD Pinz is the same as the gassers and the same info crosses over, they are different trucks.

I’ve attached a page from the UK Pinz brochure with the max rating and fuel range.
The earlier P80 and P90 had a max of 122kph for the 716 and 112kph for the 718 (I haven’t gotten around to scanning a lot of the older docs).
IMO, disc brakes, wider track and vast improvement in tires are some of the main reason the 716 and 718 can be rated for the higher speeds, but at a cost of shortening mechanical life of some components