DMV won't register 710 and revoking all pinz plates in HI

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Coolhandmatt
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DMV won't register 710 and revoking all pinz plates in HI

Post by Coolhandmatt »

I am new to the forum but need some input. I bought a 710 from my cousins father in law which had been registered in Colorado for the last 15 years. I get it shipped into Hawaii (specifically Kauai) but when I went to register it, the inspector said they can't register it because the manufacturer did not certify it to comply the 1972 federal motor safety standards. I told him there is Pinzgauers all over the island and that's when he said he is working on revoking all the registrations on them. Now mind you Hawaii is not a 1st world country and especially in the back woods of Kauai and if they can register them in California which is light years ahead of here why would this be a problem? Any advice would be much appreciated.
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David Dunn
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Re: DMV won't register 710 and revoking all pinz plates in H

Post by David Dunn »

Imported vehicles older than 25 years from manufactured date are federally exempted DOT and EPA. On the flip side, the state may have requirements for it to be register-able.

California has the CARB rules that exclude newer than 1975. Some states require back-up lamps or red stop lamps, or other "safety" devices.
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Haf-e
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Re: DMV won't register 710 and revoking all pinz plates in H

Post by Haf-e »

So is you Pinzgauer newer than 1972? Cars in 1972 were not that much safer if my memory serves me correctly. They still sold VW busses and bugs in 1972... and the ford Pinto as well.

I would ask for a copy of where it says that in Hawaii they must comply with this 1972 federal motor safety standards. I doubt it actually exists and he is probably just "trying to do his job" in his opinion.
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1971 Pinzgauer 710M

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David Dunn
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Re: DMV won't register 710 and revoking all pinz plates in H

Post by David Dunn »

All vehicles sold within the US must meet all DOT/EPA at the time of manufacture. I neglected to put "gray market" in my post above.

The Pinzgauer is gray market and all these vehicles were imported under the 25 year federal rule. That is where the inspector must be shown the law.

VWs in your example were manufactured to US standards at that time. Most all manufacturers had vehicles for worldwide distribution and those for North America.

Land Rover left the US market in 1974 because they didn't want to jump through all the hoops the US government had on vehicles.

In 1980 and newer vehicles, they have what is called a ISO VIN. The US has their format for vehicles sold here and there is a different format for the rest of the world.
Foreign manufacturers install the US VIN if the vehicle is compliant with the US laws, or use the ISO VIN for the rest of the world. It is extremely easy to determine by VIN what market a vehicle was made for.

In the original post, the inspector was looking for a federal certificate label on the Pinz. Since they were never certified here, there is no label
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The Trojan Horse... the 1st Pinz used to covertly carry troops into battle .




ATL Pinzgauer XM 718K TUM(HD) 6x6 FFR (aka The Green Grail)
Coolhandmatt
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Re: DMV won't register 710 and revoking all pinz plates in H

Post by Coolhandmatt »

My pinzgauer is a 1972. I had done some research on the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration website and they don't list the Pinzgauer and also said you can't tell if it was compliant from the older VIN number. I guess I'll try and contact them and see what they say about the older than 25 year old rule. I'm just kind of at a loss on this one.
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edzz
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Re: DMV won't register 710 and revoking all pinz plates in H

Post by edzz »

Is this the only DMV location you can go to? It sounds like you have encountered a public servant that has a personal mission and is possibly overreaching his authority.
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt.
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Haf-e
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Re: DMV won't register 710 and revoking all pinz plates in H

Post by Haf-e »

Both my 1971 Haflinger and 1970 Citroen Mehari have the label on the dash which says that they comply with all of the federal vehicle safety standards in effect at the time of manufacturing - which I think is funny because they basically don't have bumpers / seatbelts / padded dashboard / roll bar / roof / doors or just about anything one thinks of as safety. Effectively, there where no safety standards in 1971. Not sure what was changed for 1972 but I think the real change was in 1974 as that is when Citroen pulled out of the US market due to what they considered to be poorly written safety laws (and since they were loosing a lot of money in the US market)

By comparison a Pinzgauer is a safety vehicle! It has real roll bars / doors / seat belts / bumpers (almost)!

I would rather get in an accident in a 1972 Pinzgauer than a 1972 VW bus...

The reasoning is very suspicious.
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Haf-e
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Re: DMV won't register 710 and revoking all pinz plates in H

Post by Haf-e »

Did some research - the only auto related law I could find was passed in 1971 - when the US National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) issued the country's first regulation applicable to passenger car bumpers. Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard No. 215 (FMVSS 215), "Exterior Protection," took effect on 1 September 1972—when most automakers would begin producing their model year 1973 vehicles.

The standard prohibited functional damage to specified safety-related components such as headlamps and fuel system components when the vehicle is subjected to barrier crash tests at 5 miles per hour (8 km/h) for front and 2.5 mph (4 km/h) for rear bumper systems. The requirements effectively eliminated automobile bumpers designs that featured integral automotive lighting components such as tail lamps.

The 1973 model year passenger cars sold in the US used a variety designs. They ranged from non-dynamic versions with solid rubber guards, to "recoverable" designs with oil and nitrogen filled telescoping shock-absorbers.

The standards were further increased for the 1974 model year passenger cars with standardized height front and rear bumpers that could take angle impacts at 5-mile-per-hour (8 km/h) with no damage to the car's lights, safety equipment, and engine. This often meant additional overall vehicle length, as well as new front and rear designs to incorporate the stronger energy absorbing bumpers. Cars for the US market were equipped with bulky, massive, heavy, protruding bumpers to comply with the 5-mile-per-hour bumper standard in effect from 1973 to 1982. US bumper height requirements effectively made some models, such as the Citroën SM, ineligible for importation to the United States.

All-wheel-drive "cross-over" cars such as the AMC Eagle were classified as multi-purpose vehicle or trucks, and thus exempt from the passenger car bumper standards

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bumper_(car)

DEFINITIONS
SEC. 2. For the purpose of this Act:

(1) The term "passenger motor vehicle'* means a motor vehicle
with motive power, designed for carrying twelve persons or less,
except (A) a motorcycle or (B) a truck not designed primarily to
carry its operator or passengers.

(2) The term "multipurpose passenger vehicle" means a passenger
motor vehicle which is constructed either on a truck chassis
or with special features for occasional off-road operation.

https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/STATUTE-8 ... -Pg947.pdf
Haf-e

1971 Pinzgauer 710M

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Disc Brake Conversion Kits for 710 and 712 Pinzgauers
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Haf-e
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Re: DMV won't register 710 and revoking all pinz plates in H

Post by Haf-e »

There were seatbelt requirements which went into effect in 1972 also:

Standard No. 208 - Occupant Crash Protection

Passenger Cars (Effective 1-1-68)
Lap or lap and shoulder seat belt assemblies for each designated seating position. Except in convertibles, lap and shoulder seat belt assemblies are required in each front outboard seating position.

Passenger Cars (Effective 1-1-72), Multipurpose Passenger Vehicles, Trucks and Buses - Options A and B only (Effective 1-1-72)
Passenger cars, multipurpose passenger vehicles and trucks with a gross vehicle weight rating of 4,536 kg (10,000 lbs.) or less, and buses (driver's seat only) shall have:

A. A complete passive protection system, or
B. Lap belts, belts warning and meeting 48 km/h (30 mph) crash test requirements, or
C. Lap or lap and shoulder belts, seat belt warning; outboard seats shall have a single-point pushbutton release and emergency-locking or automatic-locking seat belt retractors.

Passenger Cars (Effective 1-1-73)
Requirements same as above except upper torso restraints shall have an emergency-locking retractor.

Multipurpose Passenger Vehicles, Trucks and Buses (Effective 9-1-95)
The lap portion of each seat belt in a forward-facing seat or a seat that can be adjusted to forward-facing shall have a lap belt portion that is lockable.

https://icsw.nhtsa.gov/cars/rules/import/FMVSS/#SN208
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1971 Pinzgauer 710M

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Disc Brake Conversion Kits for 710 and 712 Pinzgauers
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Re: DMV won't register 710 and revoking all pinz plates in H

Post by undysworld »

Hi Matt,

We went through a very similar situation here in Wis., starting in 2007, over the federal certification label. It was a long grueling fight, but we won. You can google me at: "Paul Underwood WisDOT" and find the court order. There are also threads here, the G-Board and on Steel Soldiers sites. Eventually, we got a law passed which specified that DOT had to register a Pinz and one that exempted "collector" vehicles from the requirement.

Your Pinz came through US Customs and was approved by both US DOT NHTSA and US EPA. Your truck was exempted due to age from both EPA and DOT requirements at the time of importation. This has been acknowledged by a NHTSA Letter of Interpretation already, and I can supply you with the link if you need.

Hawaii cannot refuse your title and registration under federal laws. They can only do so under Hawaiian law. So you should find out specifically which state statute they used to do this.

I'd be happy to help you as much as I can. I'm no attorney, but I've faked it a time or two. I'll send you a PM with my info. Good luck.

Paul
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Coolhandmatt
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Re: DMV won't register 710 and revoking all pinz plates in H

Post by Coolhandmatt »

Paul,
I had read about your huge battle up in Wisconsin.....Impressive. If you could help me with that letter that would be fantastic. I'll email that inspector and try and get the revised state statute where he is coming up with this, but I would probably guess that this may be like California doing their CARB thing?? I wanted to thank everyone for chiming in and giving me advice on this.
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David Dunn
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Re: DMV won't register 710 and revoking all pinz plates in H

Post by David Dunn »

Paul and I are talking about the same federal law.

A link to the nhtsa. see # 7
https://one.nhtsa.gov/cars/rules/import ... chor-28852
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The Trojan Horse... the 1st Pinz used to covertly carry troops into battle .




ATL Pinzgauer XM 718K TUM(HD) 6x6 FFR (aka The Green Grail)
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Re: DMV won't register 710 and revoking all pinz plates in H

Post by undysworld »

Here's the 1990 NHTSA Letter of Interpretation to Fairchild: https://isearch.nhtsa.gov/files/2787y.html It says that US DOT/NHTSA views Pinzgauers as Motor Vehicles designed and manufactured primarily for on-road use, despite their off-road capabilities.

Here's a link to the US Customs HS-7 form, which was required for your truck upon importation and prior to release from Customs: https://help.cbp.gov/ci/fattach/get/465 ... m+HS-7.pdf Note Box 1, which states "The vehicle is 25 or more years old or the equipment item was manufactured on a date when no applicable FMVSS or Theft Prevention Standards was in effect".

Here's the link to 49 US Code 30112, which details the fact that ANY motor vehicle older than 25 years old is EXEMPTED from FMVSS requirements: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/49/30112

Here's the link to the US EPA 3250-1 form, which details that a vehicle older than 21 years is EXEMPTED from EPA requirements: https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/fi ... 3520-1.pdf See Code E at the bottom of Pg. 1.

I can also send you a scan of a letter from Coleman Sachs (chief of compliance NHTSA, IIRC), stating that registration is the responsibility of the individual state/s. Let me know if you want this, as I'd have to dig a bit probably.

So registration of your Pinz is allowed under federal laws, etc. The only possible impediment to registration (provided you have a valid title, of course) would be Hawaii law. You may want to begin familiarizing yourself with it.


As to Haf-e's comments, it's pretty complicated. The first FMVSS (US safety standards) were implemented in '67, but most began in '68. The federal certification label requirement (label on door or jamb certifying compliance with FMVSS) was first required on Oct. 1, 1969, but it is only found on vehicles originally marketed in the U.S., so never on a Pinzgauer. Over the years, FMVSS have continued to become more comprehensive and strict, and vehicles must meet the standard/s in effect for the model-year of the vehicle.

For trivia sake: FMVSS have direct correlations within U.S. Military MilStd equipment standards that apply to vehicles manufactured for the U.S. govt., up to and including the 5-ton tired (as opposed to tracked) variants.
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Coolhandmatt
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Re: DMV won't register 710 and revoking all pinz plates in H

Post by Coolhandmatt »

So here is the update,,,in case anyone was wondering. The Hawaii law that states it can't be registered is HRS 286-42 and states in part: Except for motorcycles that are built on an aftermarket motorcycle frame, special interest vehicles, and reconstructed vehicles, any motor vehicle or device that is not certified by the manufacturer to be in compliance with all applicable Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards as of the date of [manufacture] shall not be registered.

So this is my hang up. There is a Rep. Aquino that is pushing a house bill to allow direct import vehicles 25 years or older, HB 737. I think this is my best chance as of right now. The DMV is not statewide but is divided into 4 counties, and it seems like there is not uniformity between them. It is not as easy as shipping it to another county/island because you can't ship it without a current plate or registration.

Or just register it in Montana where things aren't so jacked up.
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Re: DMV won't register 710 and revoking all pinz plates in H

Post by edzz »

"Special interest vehicle. A vehicle of any age that, because of its significance, is being collected,
preserved, restored, or maintained by a collector. The term includes a street rod vehicle and a street rod
replica vehicle, as those terms are defined in section 286-26.5; a vehicle manufactured before 1968; and
a vehicle manufactured after 1967 to resemble a vehicle manufactured before 1968."


https://trackbill.com/bill/hi-hb1009-sp ... le/778606/

http://www.semasan.com/semaga/TagTitleToolbox_HI.pdf
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt.
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