NO gas from CITGO in my vehicles!

[melensdad]

For those of you who do not know, Citgo Gas/Oil is owned largely by the Venezualian government. Hugo Chavez, president of Venezualia just called our president "the Devil" and I personally find that offensive. As of now I am not going to buy any Citgo products. I don't care if they are cheaper, I will drive past their stations and buy from some supplier who is at least not openly hostile to our nation. I am not one who is a big fan of President Bush, but I will not sit by and support someone who is obviously an enemy of western nations.



At U.N., Chavez calls Bush 'the devil'

By KIM GAMEL, Associated Press Writer 9 minutes ago

Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez took his verbal battle with the United States to the floor of the U.N. General Assembly on Wednesday, calling President Bush "the devil."

The impassioned speech by the leftist leader came a day after Bush and Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad sparred over Tehran's disputed nuclear program but managed to avoid a personal encounter.

"The devil came here yesterday," Chavez said, referring to Bush's address on Tuesday and making the sign of the cross. "He came here talking as if he were the owner of the world."

Chavez, who has joined Iran in opposing U.S. influence, accused Washington of "domination, exploitation and pillage of peoples of the world."

[M Wehrman]

I don't know about you but I've been called worse! If we can get worked up over "devil" ,then I guess the Islamists have the same right to be pissed at the Pope! The point here is words hold a lot of power so one should be carefull before flapping their gums! BTW,Citgo gas is real poor quality anyway, a well fed Pinz is a happy Pinz! Mark

[lindenengineering]

For info Citco is the marketing arm of PDVsa the state owned Venezuelan oil giant. Centred in Houston it employs about 40,000 AMERICAN citizens in the USA. That's 40,000 paypackets.

Venezuela sits on the largest current supply of all known oil reserves next to Canada if you take heavy oils into consideration. Currently Venezuela supplies about 14 to 20% of current US domestic demand, are you suggesting that Venezuela stop supplying oil to the USA? That would cause a big problem to the US economy. What if HE, Pres Hugo Chavez cut off all supplies to the USA that would be catastrophic for the US economy with world prices on the spot market going above $150 a barrel. What do you want to see $8 gallon for your Pinzgauer?

What I suggest is you look at why he is pissed with the USA. Moves several years ago were made by the US to remove him by a botched and not sophisticated grass roots ouster. If someone outside the US tried to remove a democratically elected president by some inside manouver in this country or attack covertly the president and its people would be equally pissed. This we have seen by the 9/11 attacks.

The world had changed no longer can the US and UK go throwing its weight about like it did decades ago, we are part of an interconnected world. The AfroAsian block has steadily increased its world power over its own resources and the Chinese are eating the USA's lunch when it comes to oil and exploration. Its Iran you need to be scared of, they intend to out manouver the West and so far they are doing a pretty good job of it.

President Bush is right the USA is hooked on oil when Regan and Maggie Thatcher were world leaders they scared the OPEC countries by announcing that there would be a steady reduction in oil demand. (a big stinking lie) This led to the USA wallowing in cheap oil, no guzzling the product like no tomorrow. The sad thing is that the big US motor manufacturers have made no plans to make economy vehicles, the results we see currently with Ford and no doubt Chrysler is going the same way. Sadly its going to be a lean Christmas for 5 mothballed Ford plants and their workers heaven knows what next year will bring for the rest of Ford in Ohio. I gain my existance from this Motor Vehicle Industry, frankly the less upheavel I see the better.

Going back to Citgo fuels, the last time Mobil Exxon, Getty Oil et al ganged up on Citco it was about aromatics and pollution. The fuel was promtly re-refined after that debackle by BP at their Monagas oil facility. The last time I saw an analysis by BP the fuel was the equal of any other US domestic available product.
How do I know alot about Venezuela, I lived and worked there for many years years, my two eldest kids are Vens and I can assure you Pres Chavez has done alot in his country with the revenues of oil more than his predecessors did like the corrupt Presidents Carlos Andres Perez, and Jiame Lucinchi of Action Democratica not to mention the other successors like the Los Chiriperros (little cockroaches).
Dennis
Hon Holder of Venzuelan Cedula

[PinzEOD]

I too, fail to find much fault in the 'devilish' comments recently made. President Chavez spoke his mind, and in the process bruised some egos.

We used to be a proud country, proud of our people, proud of our economy, proud of our military (NOT military might), proud of our government. Now we are simply proud of our pride, when it gets squished a little in an international venue, the squishing becomes an outrage. There seems to be little retrospection on what may have lead up to the incident.

An interesting and thought provoking discussion to be sure, more fitting to the "general discussion" thread. Let's keep it going with more thoughts and no bashing.

[lindenengineering]

Mike
I couldn't agree with you more.

When I worked in Arabia there was even 20 years ago a tendency for people over there to call the USA quote: "The land of the great Satan".

Of course there has always been that joking/not so joking posture and we all take it in our stride. I often would listen to the opening question in broken English :Hello British how is your cousins in the land of the great Satan?

My reply was always the same " Keifi Mumtaz" (I think doing fine") Yes just fine. So remember that I would often think.
Dennis

[buffalo_710m]

“All I really need to know about how to live, I learned in kindergarten”.

Remember the gem…’sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never harm me’(nor our president). I never take offense if an expressed opinion differs from mine….that’s what makes the world go ‘round.

I regularly visit Real 4x4 to learn from and share with the global network dedicated to researching, acquiring, customizing, maintaining, engaging in adventure travel via wonderful Haf, Pinz, Volvo, Mog, etc. vehicles. There are no fewer than 1,000,028 forums overflowing with rantings and political bashing, perceived religious slights, and geo-political posturing. I for one hope the Real 4x4 Technical forum remains focused and apolitical.

PS – last I heard, Venezuela is a “western nation”.

Buffalo

[Twin Pinzies]

Boycotting Citgo is idiotic. It will only hurt independent American distributors. This kind of "missguided patriotism" is like buying a magnetic US flag (made in communist China) and slapping it on the side of your gass-guzzling SUV and thinking that you are supporting the troups!

Get a clue. Bush was elected because of this type of thinking...I actually like the freedom that allows criticism of anyone. This isn't a dictatorship! VIVA FREEDOM!!!

P.S.- Most of the U.N. leaders applauded Chavez's comments. Makes you think huh? Maybe Bush IS the devil!

[lindenengineering]

Twin Pinzies
Good comments.Very good comments

Having lived in countries where there is no political freedom to critisise or excercise your right to a vote the very word of freedom has a more poiniant ring to it. That's why we need to protect our hard won freedoms and don't take them for granted. Because if we don't we may wake up to find them gone.
Dennis

[tokarev]

Yes the only ones that will get hurt are the people selling/working for Citgo here in the states. If you stop buying they will sell it to someone else somewhere else in the world. We need to start drilling in AK, Off the coast of FL and CA NOW - building refining capacity and treating both as a matter of national security. We have enough of our own crude to lower our dependence by at least 1/2. As long as they know they can dangle the oil issue over our head they will do it. Its sad that we have let a small group of tree huggers/leftist put our country at such risk.

[pinzinator]

If you take a hard look at what Bush has done in the past 5 years, Hugo actually gave him a compliment. A more accurate description would not be published publically so as not to offend children.

[Twin Pinzies]

I guess that we can not assume that Pinzgauer owners are all smart.

[springhill]

MELENSDAD,
I personally agree with you. I don't agree with other countries bashing the U.S., whether there is a Democrat or Republican in office. The good old U.S. has sacrificed more than any other country to allow freedom to thrive throughout the world, plus giving free money to almost anyone that needs it. If some A-hole Socialist bashes us on our own soil, I say we should make his life miserable. Like it or not, some people need to be eliminated. I'm proud to be an American and to have the freedom to say what I want. To the point-----I believe too many so-called Americans are too wimpy to stand up to anyone (France, etc.) and tell them to kiss our A@@.

[lindenengineering]

Springhill
Up to a point I agree with SOME of your script but some points are inflammatory.

No-one (foreign presidency or not) because they verbally disagree with the US and the US policies needs to be eliminated, that type of gun boat diplomacy is dead and buried flat. It's that type of attitude that sadly has the US facing terrorist actions from extremely hostile clandestine organizations today.

The French by the way are an extemely adept nation over the past 50 years at diplomacy and avoiding conflict, so may I say are the rest of the European nations.

This dogma of foisting American influence where its not necessarily needed is why we are all facing serious problems in the world today mostly I might add over the past 5 years. Sadly the country, (USA) faces marginalization by the rest of the world. This is serious because the world needs the USA in a constructive intervention posture.

The USA has traditionally took a haughty posture to its other American (north and south) neighbours. At the last OAS meeting that took place in Ft Lauderdale the US was singled out and centured by the other members, for international activities not acceptable and a motion was tabled that the USA needed monitoring for violation of human rights activities, only Chile sided with the US delegate one Ms C Rice. That occurance is a sad develoment taking how much constructive American influence has prevailed in the last 100 years.

Before I get too heavy into this subject I like to read the newspapers both moderate and left wing from the Arabic press like:- ex El Ahkram and Al Quds al Arabie) and South American press every Sunday . Recently I opened the web page for Al Sabah a Turkish newspaper distributed for the Arab nations like Syria , Lebanon, and Iraq. In the cartoon section was a characture of our Mr Bush pushing a Souk cart, on the cart was a snowman that was melting under the Arabian sun. Hung on its torso was a bandolier (like Miss World) on it was written "Democracy".

On seeing this I split my sides with laughter, anyone who has lived in the Middle East will know that trying to enforce such an ideal on a country(ies) that has/have never know what such a system is much less teach people to use it effectively is flying too close to the sun like Ibn Bin Firness and likely to get his feathers burnt. Unfortunately at the moment its American and some parts of the British Armed Forces that are getting their tail feathers singed. I have difficulty quite frankly in saying the right words to one of my suppliers who lost his only son supporting this adventure in Iraq.

The last US adventure of this magnitude ended in US humiliation need I mention Vietnam. I once heard a senior military man say quote "One of the finest military forces in the world was beaten by a bunch of barefoot farmers dressed in black pyjamas" Unquote.
I don't want to see a repeat of history but so far as the Middle East is concerned mistakes have been made by the West since the Ist Crusade and even Persia got a whacking from the Arab nations at the hands of Said Ubu Bin Whackas and the ill fated attack by Gen Rustam during the Arab invasions of Anno Dominii 635.
Dennis

[springhill]

Linden,
I too agree with some of your points. I believe America has put its nose into affairs that it shouldn't have. I don't think we should police the world, but that policy was put into place long ago.
It just ticks me off when countries that owe us their freedom (emphasize FRANCE) can do nothing but talk about how bad America is for the world. I lost an uncle in WW2 fighting for their freedom from Hitler, but I have never heard a thank you from any French citizen.
Also, I didn't mean to imply that we should eliminate anyone who disagrees with our policy. There are certain so-called leaders that would be better off dead----meaning the citizens of their country would enjoy a better life without them. It would save more lives to eliminate the trouble maker instead of the people that serve them. The problem is that there are too many people that believe in Live and Let Live. Maybe we should have not retaliated for 9/11 and just let them keep killing Americans. Would we be better off? I guess some of us would.

[M Wehrman]

It just ticks me off when countries that owe us their freedom (emphasize FRANCE
It's been a long time since school, but were the French not helpful during the American Revolution against our enemy the BRITISH ? I had always been raised to repay my debts and I believe we did.... We raise our children,give them what they need/want . Does that mean we should expect them to owe us forever? Of all the creatures on this Planet,only the most intelligent can destroy it. So are Cows are a stupid animal? I would have no issue being a Cow in a World of Cows! This topic is kinda like a bar room fight 'cept no owies! (on the outside) ! TTFN,Mark

Pushing submit and waiting for the fall-out!