SOS WI DOT Cancels ALL Pinz Titles!

undysworld · Post by **undysworld** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 2:40 pm

Hello, and Help,

This is for real! I just recieved a letter from the Wisconsin DOT, dated Sept. 25, informing me that a mistake was made (by them) in issueing the original title to me. They sent a new Wisc. Cert. of Title with the MAKE marked as - "STEYR PUCH PINZGAUER - NON ROADWORTHY". (Anybody interested in buying a used Pinz with THAT on the Title??)

The letter states that it was made "in Switzerland to be used as a military vehicle". "Since the vehicle isn't manufactured for road use and doesn't meet the equipment requirements, the department has cancelled the title listed above".

Apparently, ALL Pinz owners in Wisconsin will receive these letters, if they haven't already.

My goal in posting this is twofold: first to make contact with as many Wisconsin Pinz owners as possible, as there may be strength in numbers, and secondly to notify the Pinz community at large about this problem, as it indirectly effects a lot of you since people in Wisconsin buy Pinzgauers and parts, etc. (or at least we USED to!). Any possible help from the Pinz group would be welcomed.

A neighbor of mine and fellow Pinzer, George Stauffer, has been in contact with the DOT, and is pursuing the matter. (Some people may recognize George as one of the people who used to import De Tomaso Panteras after Ford discontinued their sale in '75. Currently runs Stauffer Classics) He has many contacts throughout the car world and hopefully might be able to get them to change their position.

For my part, I am not yet returning my old Title, as requested. I am hoping to get the word out and would like any/all Wisconsin Pinz owners to write/call me just preliminarily. I'd like to get the list to George directly. I'll do my best to keep you informed what happens via email. At this point, there have been no legal fees involved. Should this change, I'll let people know, and you can act as you see fit.

Thanks,
Paul Underwood
608 437-3465

David Dunn · Post by **David Dunn** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 3:18 pm

Paul
This is not a DOT (federal) issue. Anything over 25 year old is exempt from Federal DOT and EPA laws. States may have further restrictions for registration within a state.

The comment made by the state is not true. These vehicles were made with all the safety equipment required at the time of manufacture.
They were made also and registered for civilian use in Europe.

It should be asked of the DMV what is not roadworthy, it may come down to a vehicle inspection where the rear lamps must be red, and backup lamps required. It may also require the upgrading of any glass that is not DOT approved or non DOT lighting. Again, this may be only your state ( Cal hasn't gone that far ...yet), and as said in the beginning, this is a state issue that needs to be addressed.

Under no instance would I return the registration to the state. You bought and registered your truck in good faith. If you are forced to sell it, someone needs to be held accountable.

If all else fail, resort to name calling... ask if some reject from Kalifornia is running their DMV? since he/she would had to be a reject, things are nowhere that bad out here.

Good luck

from a kinder, nicer Dave

pinzwheeling · Post by **pinzwheeling** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 3:32 pm

Just out of curiousity, how long have you had your Pinz in Wisconsin. If something like this starts there, I wonder how long it will be before the residents of California will be receiving them?

pinzwheeling · Post by **pinzwheeling** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 3:35 pm

undysworld wrote:
The letter states that it was made "in Switzerland to be used as a military vehicle". "Since the vehicle isn't manufactured for road use and doesn't meet the equipment requirements, the department has cancelled the title listed above".

Since the Pinzgauers were manufactured for civilian use (road use) in certain countries, doesn't that discount this whole BS situation?

Possibly something that you could use in your argument with Wisconsin DOT.

Erik712m · Post by **Erik712m** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 4:16 pm

Look where they say it is made? I thought they were made in Austria

undysworld · Post by **undysworld** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 4:43 pm

Hi everybody. Thanks for your interest. I've owned my truck for 5 years, if I remember correctly. I think that this whole situation is a scary one for this community, and hopefully, we get it reversed right here. I love that "made in Switzerland", what a bunch of boneheads. Although that probably won't win the arguement. Dave, thanks for the call. I'll pass your thoughts on to George.
This is not over by a long shot, I'd guess.
Paul

David Dunn · Post by **David Dunn** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 7:46 pm

The following is an experience I had with the DMV reading "into" a phrase
Years ago when I bought my Haflinger, the following statement was typed in the middle of the invoice

The Haflinger is a surplus military vehicle that does not exhibit standard road driving characteristics

When this statement was read by the person at the DMV, she said that the Haflinger was for off road only, and could not be registered for the street. After trying to tell her that the phrase had nothing to do with "off road only" but was the same warning as applied to any SUV, to no avail. I sternly and a little on the loud side said... READ THE WORDS, THEY ARE IN ENGLISH ! , she responded with getting her supervisor to which I had the exact same conversation, with the exact last comment from my mouth.... after a few moment of the supervisor reading and rereading the phrase ( and me expecting Security to shuttle me off to a little room), he agreed that the Haflinger could be registered.

I tend to believe that the actions in Wisconsin, probably came about from a "I don'tGive $hit" DMV employee hearing bits and pieces of a story ( which they rearranged into what they thought they heard) from a newbie Pinz owner that if had said nothing, none of this mess would have come about.

A Kinder and Gentler Dave

todds112 · Post by **todds112** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 8:14 pm

When I registered the Pinz here, they put a note in the "info field" that it was a surplus military 6x6. But it is still registered as a SUV Passenger due to the back seats.

Of course Wyoming will let you register a 4 wheel ATV as a motorcycle here and drive it on the street (as long as it has lights, turn signals etc).

Isn't there a lobbying body for antique/collector vehicles? Perhaps they could assist.

pcolette · Post by **pcolette** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 8:36 pm

Hi Paul,

I am also a WI Pinz owner (710M) west of you near Dodgeville. I bought my Pinz from George in November of last year (it was his personal one out of several he had). At the time he had just been refused renewal of his registration for similar reasons as your letter stated so he was unsure if I'd be able to title it. I took the signed title directly to the Wis DOT office at Hilldale and talked face to face with the clerk who at first did not understand what it was and was hesitant to title and register it. A carefully worded description of the vehicle and its use and the fact(?) it was considered roadworthy by the Federal DOT convinced the clerk and he issued the title and registration. It's possible I omitted some details of the vehicle but sometimes too much info is a problem for those ill-equipped to understand it.

I have not received the letter as you did and actually just renewed my registration 2 weeks ago.

Please keep me posted and feel free to contact me if you have any questions.

Paul Colette
608-532-6860

lindenengineering · Post by **lindenengineering** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 8:39 pm

Paul
I have come across this with the State of Kansas and the Daimler Ferret Scout car.
It took the owner about two years to get the licencing authorities to 'modify the order'. I remember there were several attornies involved including one appointed by the local MPVA.

I suggest you contact the local branch, join the MPVA immediately, and do some research. First a letter asking for an explanation, copy to your local congressman siting similar ex mil vehicles of US source. This was I remember a tortuous fight lasting more than two years. So don't hold your breath.

I expect to see more of these types of posts as emissions limits get more stringent after the next elections. I am afraid we may even see Pinzies and other grey stuff relegated to lawn ornaments in due time, housing unwanted garden knomes that the Missus takes a dislike to. Serious business. I shouldn't joke!
Dennis

undysworld · Post by **undysworld** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 9:35 pm

Hi Dennis,.
Thanks, but who's the MPVA? Google shows it as the Midwest Professional Volleyball Association. Huh??
And two f**kin years?? I don't own that kind of acreage, it'll all be worn down to nubs in two years. I can't even get my truck across state lines, legally.....

Pinz Enthusiast · Post by **Pinz Enthusiast** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 9:41 pm

Hey Dave,

I'm thinking as long as Arnold is our Gov. we should be ok as I don't belive he will allow the DMV to not register his pinzies, and I agree with the carefull wording of said vehicles, I almost lost mine when I went in to have it reassigned as a SUV from a Commercial Truck, the DMV Referee or whatever they are called mentioned it might not be legal untill he looked into the back to see the seats and belts, I told him it was not a cargo truck and that as far as compliance to check with DOT in washington, to which he replied "takes to much time, enjoy your truck"......Maybe we need to show some of these bureaucrats the original pinz video, especially where they mention the safety tests and emmision tests and that it passed.

todds112 · Post by **todds112** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 9:56 pm

I think Dennis meant:

www.mvpa.org

Military Vehicle Preservation Assoc.

David Dunn · Post by **David Dunn** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 10:15 pm

Eric
You're misguided believing Arnold's on our side. HE was the one that signed the bill that ended the rolling exemption in Cal and fixed it at 1975. And made no provision for grey market vehicles.
As for as safety testing, the video is only for the showing what can be done in a controlled environment...... you don't think they show the screwups?

I am aware of at least one item that had been outlawed in the early '70s in the US on cars ( Land Rover comes to mind, and changed in '72) and wasn't changed until the 716/18s on Pinzes.

Hagerty Insurance has active lobbyists watching collector and special interest car laws across the country. You may not be aware, but there was a bill in Cal that would have required annual smog tests on any car over 15 year old. It did not pass.

btw, because of Arnold signing the law, I had to sell a LR101 out of state. ( actually went to Canada).

Dave Dunn

Erik712m · Post by **Erik712m** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 10:47 pm

I have come across this with the State of Kansas and the Daimler Ferret Scout car.

shocked To see this as i know of a couple of tanks down the street in Eastborough. But if you own the local news paper i guess you can buy what you want drive it to the local bar and even blow ever window in the town and pay to have them fixed.

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