Newby in the UK - hello and some questions?

psychoman · Post by **psychoman** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 3:47 am

Hi all,

Well... I've had a "thing" about 101s for a while and am now starting to seriously consider jumping in the deep end and buying one! But I've also been looking at other FC vehilces, including the Pinz 710/712 and 303s. So, a few thoughts and a couple of questions (and apologies if these have been covered elsewhere)...

1. I like the 101, Pizgauer 710/712 and Volvo 303.... anyone had any experience of all 3 and any views on reliability, parts availability, off road capability, daily ownership?

2. I currently own a challenge spec 90 which I'd be selling to buy the FC. I realise these are very different beasts, but wondered just how much different. Am I going to be horribly disappointed when my 101/Pinz/whatever won't go where my 90 used to?

Thanks!

ScottishPinz · Post by **ScottishPinz** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 5:30 am

I was like you, liked all these boxy forward control trucks (still do) I have never had a good look at the volvo so couldn't really comment but they are easy to maintain and capable. Landrover you know, they have a good fan base here in UK so parts and advise are easy to come by. The 101 is much bigger than the Pinz. I often park next to 101s at military shows and the Pinz looks dinky! Inside I find the Pinz much more my size, I'm 197cm so don't really fit a 101!!

I have now had my truck for nearly 3 years and not had any problems, it took me round Europe last year and will hopefully perform as well as I'm off to Iceland in it soon!

The Pinz is the most expensive of the 3, equally rare as the volvo here but worldwide the most produced! The 101 is really quite a rare vehicle, which body style are you concidering? I wanted a camper and the 710k fits perfectly!

psychoman · Post by **psychoman** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 1:04 pm

Hey Scottishpinz - thanks for the quick reply!

I really like the GS version of the 101 or the same version of the 710 or 712 (probably the 710, to be honest). Don't mind roughing it a bit when we're camping! Whatever we get I'm looking at a low roofline model - the ambulance/box back jobs are just too big for the kind of offroading we do - I just know they'd get smashed against trees!

I've been in touch with Ian McKenzie - he seems to have a few Pinz's in stock, though the prices are about double what you'd pay for a 101, so I have to think carefully...

When are you off to Iceland? We're taking our 90s there in August...

ScottishPinz · Post by **ScottishPinz** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 3:52 pm

Iceland next month! The Pinz is worth the money if you can afford it. A really high quality truck and no depreciation on these type of vehicles!

If you are into really rough off road / narrow tracks the pinz is great. Not such a good trials vehicle though as the diff locks don't disengage instantly for tight turns. Remember a 710 has a shorter wheelbase than a 90! Check out my website for a comparison. http://bagstraining.co.uk/Pinzcomp.html

psychoman · Post by **psychoman** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 4:24 pm

Nice link - thanks....

So - when do you sail - presumably you are going from Scrabster? We're on the 13th August sailing. May see you over there?!?

Profpinz · Post by **Profpinz** » Sun Jun 22, 2008 6:54 pm

1. any experience of all 3 and any views on reliability, parts availability, off road capability, daily ownership?

Can't say I've had any personal experience but being a member of the LROCV (Land Rover owner Club of Victoria...I've got a 2001 RR) I do get to see and "play" with them occasionally.
Australia sold off their fleet of 101's (with the Rapier Missle system) some years ago and like the Pinny most have now filtered down into the hands of enthusiasts.

A mate of mine uses his for regular outback touring (mind you it hasn't got the stand 3.5L anymore but rather a souped up 4.6) and he thinks it is great! .... Like the Pinzgauer most owners seem to acquire a nack for finding those specialist components and parts and I've never heard of him not being able to get any parts somewhere.
Reliability doesn't seem to be so much of a problem with the 101's but I must admit most are relatively low milage and Rod's (my mate) gets more loving attention than a lot of other vehicles get in a lifetime!

Am I going to be horribly disappointed when my 101/Pinz/whatever won't go where my 90 used to?

On road the LR90 has the edge.
Off road the Pinzgauer is the winner. It doesn't have the axle articulation, or bhp of the 90, but the ground clearance, diff locks and overall design make up for that.

Personally I prefer the 712 (although I also own one of the few 4X4's in the country) as the stability offered by the extra axle and the additional capability from the extra set of driven wheels, makes it an even more capable performer than the 710.

The Pinz is the most expensive of the 3, equally rare as the volvo here but worldwide the most produced!

I'II have to recalculate it, but from memory I think the total Pinzgauer production to date is around 34,000.
I understand about 3500, 101's were produced.
I don't know about Volvo production numbers....Has anybody got any figures?

ScottishPinz · Post by **ScottishPinz** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 4:47 am

Those figures make some reading! I grew up near an army barracks and was used to seeing Landrover 101s all the time, even remember them out with L plates on and troops taking driving lessons. I had never seen a Pinzgauer and even now I see more 101s on the road in the UK. The worldwide picture is the exact opposite with Pinzgauers being relatively common! I don't know about figures for the Volvo but they were also produced in civilian guise so they MUST be common than the Landrover.

I'm afraid I won't see you in Iceland as I am back before August, but I hope you have a good trip.[/i]

Profpinz · Post by **Profpinz** » Mon Jun 23, 2008 8:24 am

I guess it all comes down to who has them and where they were/are available!

The 101 for instance was only used by the militaries of the UK, Luxembourg, Egypt and Australia, and in some of those countries it's use was very specific (Australia only had a small number to service the Rapier Missle system)

Like the Pinzgauer the Volvo was also produced as both a 4X4 (4140/4141 or C303) and 6X6 (4143 or C306) yet it appears that only the Swedish and Malaysian Army used them.
I think the earlier Volvo 3314 (Laplander) was more popular in the civilian market!

The Pinzgauer on the other hand was/is used by:
Austria, Ghana, Nigeria, Oman, Sudan, Switzerland, Tunisis, Yugoslavia, Cyprus, Malaysia, Parkistan, Saudia Arabia, UK, New Zealand (and the TD is also used by the USA according to Janes)

A very limited number of Pinzgauers were imported into Australia for civilan use (hence that's how I have mine) but specialist vehicles like the Pinzgauer, Volvo and 101 usually rely on military sales for the production of effective, viable numbers.

Anthony · Post by **Anthony** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 8:45 am

I have extensive experience of the 101, having owned one since 1990, over 18 years. Mine is the rare hard top radio variant which is a van with 1 side door and 1 rear. I now also own a Volvo C304 TGB13 which is the 5 door hard van version 6x6.

Off road I believe that the 101 is very capable even though it does not have difflocks or portal axles. Mine was used extensively off-road, "green laning", camping, Competitive trialling and pay an play. In trials it would go every where a 90 or 110 would go except in the most narrow of spaces and where very tight turns might be expected. It turned better than a 110 but not a 90, about the same as a Rangerover. With its normal 9.00 tyres it has greater ground clearance then a 90 or 110 when also on standard tyres and has greater mud plugging ability than either strait out of the box. Springs are parabolic all round and will give good articulation when asked, mine has Koni adjustable dampers. It, like all forward control vehicles offer excellent view of the road ahead. It has an excellent ramp break over angle, approach and depart so it can clear large humps far better than a 110 or even a 90 could dream of. It does not have power steering, witch is noticed at slow road speed manoeuvres on the road or when getting caught up with tree stumps off road. I have been clocked doing over 80mph in mine on the motorway for long periods without any modification to the gearing except a change to 9.00R16 Michelin tyres. The 101 can take much larger tyres without modification The inside is large enough for inside camping for two. We insulated ours with 2" polystyrene household insulation and added a hot plate cooker and could camp extensively for long periods down to minus 17c in complete comfort. The cargo bed is wider than the Pinzgauer and we could sleep athwart ships.

I bought the Volvo a 6x6 partly because we have an addition to our family. She will be 4 at the end of the month only 2 days after our 28th wedding anniversary. I just felt that we needed a little more space but did not want to sacrifice off-road ability. Initially I was looking for a Pinzgauer 718K with disc brakes all-round, power steering and the benefit of a TDi engine. Well they are very rare one has to be at the right place at the right time with the money and be prepared to beat of some other unscrupulous characters in the chase. Some one suggested that I look at the Volvo, something I was aware of but I had only seen very scruffy ones at that time. I started to read about them more and more, the more that I read the more I became to going that way.

I suppose that you could say that they are very much like a 101 superficially but on steroids. The cross section and plan are identical except for the additional length of the6x6 versions. They have portal axles offering tremendous ground clearance on similar size tyres to the 101. It has difflocks in all axles and has a similar ramp aproach and departure angle, Springs are cart all round though the 6x6 uses parabolic on the rear tandem which shares the load. I have not done extensive off-road work as yet with the Volvo but I suspect that its ability is massive and have no reason to suspect other wise. It is capable also of taking much taller and modern tyres without modification. The only thing that in my opinion is not as good as the 101 is the engine. The V8 rover is far better all round and with far more outlets in GB. The 101 V8 is also unleaded and will tolerate low octane fuel without additives. It is not as fast as the 101 on the black stuff either.

In my view and opinion all three vehicles suffer in having old, under powered engines I think the LR V8 is better but still out dated by modern turbo inter cooled diesels. The 101 and the Volvo have plenty of space and few impediments to update the power plant and transmission, the Pinzgauer is quite tight in this department but it can still be done. Their are also plenty of people supplying things like disc brake conversions for the Volvo and also the 101. Power steering is possible on all 3.

I have only driven a Pinzgauer for short distances and never owned one. I was impressed by the quality of components but the same can also be said of the Volvo, both are far superior in quality than the LR 101 which is more of a capable Bits Stuck Anywhere (BSA) machine. The electrics on the Volvo for instance are very well laid out and easily accessible. the Pinzgauer is the smaller of the 3 and better for very narrow tree lined tracks, the Volvo and the 101 are much more imposing.

In summary I would say that they all 3 offer excellent off-road ability. They all use old petrol engines and so have poor economy None of them come equipped as standard with power steering, though some civilian Volvo's do. They are all 30 years old or more and are noisy and lacking in creature comforts when comparing to even a LR 90 or 110. I believe that ultimately the Volvo has the edge in extreme going but each has its strong points. Unless one buys the Swedish Army refurbished and galvanised Volvo's they are inclined to be rust buckets. The galvanised ones are much better, the Pinzgauer is much better also but one or two places are known to suffer, the 101 had aluminium bodies but things like door frames are known to rust. In GB the 101 will have a better supply of parts and the 101 owners club is excellent making many parts that LR have ceased making. The Volvo and Pinzgauer ore more specialised. I think that anyone could be happy owning any of the three.

ScottishPinz · Post by **ScottishPinz** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 9:35 am

And now psychoman we all eagerly await to hear what you decide to buy...

psychoman · Post by **psychoman** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 2:58 pm

Wow Anthony - comprehensive response - thank you!

And Scottishpinz - thanks for the poll - really interested to see the results.

As to what I'm buying - well I'm in full search mode now - trawling ebay, military mags and owners clubs. Found a few 710s and 712s for sale and a couple of very tidy 101GS... so next will be visits and test driving.

Haven't found any Volvos for sale in the UK at all as yet, which in itself puts me off somewhat, as it suggests that they are much rarer here, with all the issues that go along with this....

I'll keep you all informed!

Thanks again for the help and advice.

Anthony · Post by **Anthony** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 3:56 pm

Occasionally one comes across Volvo for sale in GB. I imported mine. I know one or two places in Germany and one in particular whom I would trust having bought mine through him. He found mine to a specification that I asked for and then took it back to North Germany. When it was ready I went over and drove it back. It then had a TUV. I am very happy with mine except that it smokes a little on the overrun, that is going down hill without the accelerator, on the flat it is OK. I will need to have the head reconditioned with lead-free hardened valve seats in the heads. The other thing known to make a huge improvement to drivability economy and reliability is the fitments of 123 ignition which is a complete electronic distributor with no points or mechanical advance it is al processor controlled and their are a lot of very good reports about it World wide. Here is my import story.

http://www.c303.de/c303-forum/index.php ... eadid=8005

I also no of some Pinzgauer outlets for you also in GB one in the North of GB

http://www.haflingertechnik.com/html/in ... hnik%20Ltd

the guy above is very well respected and known throughout Europe

and a few in Germany and in Switzerland their are a few excellent places,

If it is a Pinzgauer that your after and you fancy importing it yourself then it would do you no harm to look at Robi's Pinzgauer in Germany. A thoroughly excellent website and forum.

http://pinzforum.kiruna.de/index.php

, just use Goggle to translate and and write back in English 99% have excellent English putting some of us to shame, but do make apologies first it is only polite until they know you.

I have a 101FC that is to go now as I have said it is a Radio body with Koni shocks and Michelin XZL 9.00R16 Tyres and Luminition electronic ignition. It does need some work now to go through MOT and a little tidying tidying as it has been lying around unused for a little while, price would take all into account. As you know their are plenty of outlets for the 101 in GB with excellent support from club and suppliers.

Anthony · Post by **Anthony** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 4:02 pm

OH,

by the way you do realise that their is another Manx Man on this Board who just happens to have a Volvo C304 TGB1314 ambulance 6x6. Perhaps if you ask him he will show you around it only he has taken out the engine for a heart transplant.

Which Ever Way You Through Me I Shall Stand

I do not know the Latin.

Anthony · Post by **Anthony** » Tue Jun 24, 2008 4:05 pm

PPS

What is it that you want to do with your Forward Control,l what ever it is that you end up with, as that might have a significant baring on what you may want to buy>

David Dunn · Post by **David Dunn** » Wed Jun 25, 2008 2:56 am

Things are a little lopsided here.
ScotishPinz
When comparing a 710 to a LR, a Series 88 is out of the same era. For a 90, is best compared to a 716. These matchups are best against one another based on upgrades to brakes, engine, steering and wheelbases ( which these "pair ups" are almost the same).

I've had 3 Pinzes ( 710M,712M & 716K) over the last 7 years, and being 6'1" and 250 lbs, I have never wanted for more room or seating position in any of them. I've had the 716 for over 6 1/2 years now, and an "enlargement" to the driver's compartment would actually make for increased reach for the different switches and gauges.
Other points of comparison is that the field of vision on a 710/12 is obstructed the same as a Series LR for taller people , having to bend down to look upwards. Both the 90s and 716/18 have a taller windshield line of vision.

For seating comfort, I had a LR S3 88" for 18 years and Defender 90 NAS for the last 12 years, even with an extra 1 1/2" of additional rearward movement of the front seat ( NAS Defenders do not have the bulkhead behind the front seats). I could not get any long distance seating comfort. Part of my "NATO" motorpool also includes a LR 101 Vampire, in which the driver's seating position is worse than a Series LR. Worse than the seats, is how hot the enclosed cab is in the Southwest US climate, with only a poorly insulated (and poor sealing) aluminum engine cover to isolate you.

It would be my prejudice opinion since you are in the UK, and IF you can afford it, to look at a Turbo Diesel 716 (or a 6x6 718).Among the improvements are: 4 wheel disc brakes ( dual callipered fronts), power steering, vacuum operated locking diffs,wider ratio transfer case and overdrive 5 speed transmission ( auto boxes are out there too). anti-burst door locks, an air leveling rear suspension on 716s.
With the powerplant, I doubt that you could find one ( or afford it). but only the latest Pinzes made have the 2.5 TDI engine ( I believe since 2002). Prior to that, the VW 2.4TD engine was used in the TD Pinzes (as used in VW 3.5 trucks and Volvo cars). Since '93 the innercooled version

Peter
As best as I know, the total production of 101s were just under 2700.
We also need to get together on total Pinz numbers

.... According to "100 Years of Steyr-Daimler-Puch", Pinzgauer production was approximately 24000, from 1971 to 1999 ( I assume when the factory was closed and moved to the UK). The factory started production again around 2002 and in Pinzgauer's Newsletter in the summer of 2007 announced the 1000th UK manufactured Pinzgauer. ( an average 200 per year, not allowing for production to increase as they got the bugs out of the new production lines ). These numbers didn't fit with my best 'guessimates' either. As I had production of the P80s and P90s at 2000 (from TMs), and ( for some reason that escapes me now) the number of P93s at 7000 +/-. ( obviously that number is a lot lower). Even if BAE was able to ramp up production, I wouldn't think they would have the capacity to make over 500 vehicles in a year's time. Let alone, have the sales for that number. Using that data, I would guess the total Pinz production at be lower than 26000, of which 18000 +/- are 710/12s ???

Dave Dunn