Pinzgauer On Curvy Roads

[nicholastanguma]

I read in this thread (viewtopic.php?p=22114) about Pinzgauer weight bias danger on wet and/or curvy roads. I would be using a Pinz 710M as a general roadtrip vehicle, and not just an offroading toy; this, of course, would mean plenty of curves in mountainous areas all over the world. And because I was leaning toward removing the rear roll bar simply for aesthetic reasons, I would have even less weight over the rear axle than usual.

It should be noted that I am not a fast driver at all, in fact am cautious even to the point of being rightly called "slow." No joke, my 65 year old father says I drive too slowly.

Am I just being paranoid about curves in the Rockies and the Alps and such, or should I genuinely be looking for a way to load weight over the rear axle?

[undysworld]

I think you'd be well advised to retain the rear hoop. The rollover hoops are not very heavy, weight-wise. Other than your aesthetic goals, you're not achieving much by losing it, IMHO. But it could stop your truck from perhaps rolling further, and may provide some safety if it does. I'd think that would be welcomed in mountainous terrain. The only time I've ever seen them as a disadvantage was when the trail caused the truck to lean so far that the hoops would be hitting trees.

Plus, if you're out driving all over in the boonies, won't you have the rear of the truck loaded down with equipment?

Yup. I vote for "paranoid". Go have fun.

[ScottishPinz]

The 4x4 does feel more stable when loaded a bit. Just pack your luggage to provide the ballast and remember, as you say, it is no sports car

[David Dunn]

To state the oblivious, the Pinzgauer is a cab forward truck (the driver sit over and forward of the steering axle). The only reason for this design is for increase payload capacity within a given overall vehicle size and confined area maneuverability. The compromise is the lack of weight of an empty truck on the rear axle, and length of a truck plays into this too. An empty FC in braking will nose dive in front, and the rear will extend itself up in the rear , removing even more weight on the rear axle reducing further the effectiveness of the rear brakes and to keep the truck in a straight line… the additional pressure on the front brakes with exaggerate the minor out of adjustments of the brakes (aka swerving). I’ve found that any truck handles and rides far better if they have at least 1/3 to ½ their payload capacity.

The rear rollbar is almost useless in the original 710/12 form and folds pretty easy in rollover, and you need to consider the little amount of inertia force applied in the factory’s video of an easy “pushover”… the quicker the rollover, the quicker and further it will fold . In the TDs, they are fitted with diagonal braces from the top rail near the rear door to about 2/3 the way up the sides of the rollbar for structural strength.
The cage that is mounted inside the front rollbar actually serves 2 purposes. The oblivious is it keep cargo from coming forward onto the driver in a panic stop, it also serves as rigidity for the rollbar in a rollover. It should never be removed, the only other protection the cab area has is the windshield and frame… and the glass is quick to exit the frame, if given a chance.

As much as I like softtops, I don't really see a M as a practical expedition vehicle because of the lack of lockable storage and shelter and eventually someone will think they should have what you didn't lock up....

[Jimm391730]

My daily work commute includes 4,000 vertical elevation change on winding mountain roads, and any where I go the Pinzi's have to be driven up and down it, too.
1. Real tires are a must (radials, not Maloyas). Makes the Pinz feel like a sports care by comparison. Off road tread patterns are OK but not as good in the wet, snow, and ice as more siped tires.
2. My first trip up the mountain in my "new" 710M was quite an experience; even in the dry, it has quite the oversteer compared to better balanced vehicles. But I've since gotten so accustomed to the oversteer that I don't notice it anymore.
3. Most of my driving is without any additional weight in the rear. Yes, more weight kept down low helps, but then with a lot of weight I'm driving slower.

I helped recover a 710M that had rolled about 7 times down a mountainside, and while the roll bars were bent, they absorbed a significant amount of force that would otherwise have been transmitted to the body. Both occupants walked away. The truck later needed the body straightened, new doors, new rollbars and side panels but it was driven to the shop for that repair.

So once you get used to the handling a 710 is no different than any other 60's-70's vintage truck -- do not count on modern vehicle handling or braking. But if you treat it for what it is and use it within its limits it is no more dangerous than any other vehicle. The biggest thing to remember is that its limit is much slower than many people expect; if you push speed you are likely to get in over your head. On the other hand, I had a friend follow me in the 710M up the hill in his PT Cruiser and he said he had never driven the PT so hard!

[Garrycol]

Very good points made there by David.

To reinforce the points made - not a Pinz but an Australia Army 101 doing brake tests on a high grip surface with no weight in the back. The 101 has a much lower CofG than a Pinz and is a much more stable vehicle.





Here is my 101 going down hill. The two Pinz with me had the same issue and fun.

[GenevaPinz]

To come back to the OP's question, my personal take is that as long as you remain cautious you will be fine, loaded or not over the rear axle.

I did the 6 hour trip to Gut garage from my place last year, and back a few weeks later as I had the truck serviced and a modification added. I stayed clear of highways and went through a couple of passes in the Alps. Quite scenic and pleasant. The back of the truck was empty (I did not even have the spare wheel in place, it was laid flat in the back)

I got in trouble at one point, just because after hours of driving I got distracted on what was a mildly windy road that quite suddenly had 2 tighter bends going downhill. I never had problems in the steeper roads going down the passes as I remained focused on driving.

The whole issue was my distraction, which led to missing a downshift, fighting with the lever a bit and consequently going into a sharper bend, downhill, with an inappropriate speed.

Realising I was going a bit too fast entering the curve, I started braking harder and the truck started oversteering. I released some of the brakes and straightened the wheels as much as possible given the room I had, and luckily the road was reasonably wide with nobody coming in the opposite direction. Once I was back in a straight line I could brake some more, and then continue the curve without issue (except some sphincter tightening...). I guess I had 2 wheels in the opposite direction lane at some point...

So as I mentionned at the start, as long as you remain cautious and reasonably concentrated on what you're doing, you'll be fine. Downhill curves should be the object of some extra caution because of gravity playing its part.

[nicholastanguma]

I think you'd be well advised to retain the rear hoop. The rollover hoops are not very heavy, weight-wise. Other than your aesthetic goals, you're not achieving much by losing it, IMHO.

Any idea what the rear hoop weighs, approximately?

I'm wondering if a second spare tire mounted flat in the bed over the rear axle, plus 30lbs of lead shot in the rear bumperettes, in addition to leaving the rear hoop in place will provide a slightly more balanced ride for braking and driving down hills.

[VinceAtReal4x4s]

Anything will help but number one, like mentioned above, is putting on good, radial AT tires. Two is understanding that you have a very short wheelbase.

Having good shocks play a big role too.

[undysworld]

Any idea what the rear hoop weighs, approximately?

It's been a while since I've had one off a truck, but I'd take a guess at 30-40 lbs. Not much.

[Stekay]

if you really concerned... and you seem like you are, a 30"x36"x1" steel plate will weigh 308 lbs. I'd make sure it REALLY secure. A lot easier to just drive sensibly.

[63rover]

Remember the rule of thumb, never go down a hill in a higher gear than you can go up it.

You may be going slow by your Dad's standards if your speedo is like mine. Mine reads at least 15 km faster than I am going. (confirmed by radar gun) I felt pretty silly when I realized that my 10 over the limit was 5 under!

[undysworld]

if you really concerned... and you seem like you are, a 30"x36"x1" steel plate will weigh 308 lbs. I'd make sure it REALLY secure. A lot easier to just drive sensibly.

One of the guys here in Wisconsin did just that. Bolted it down on the floor just inside the rear door, IIRC. It was a K modified with a soft top, so the rear seats sat forward of the plate.

[Andre]

My $.02. I decided to run around "T" style while I repainted and repaired my bed panels.

575855_309141509214815_1351258702_n.jpg (45.39 KiB) Viewed 5162 times

The lack of weight in the rear brought new meaning to the words "panic stop". Removing the rear roll member, canvas, and bow supports makes a minimal difference in braking or cornering. It seemed to me, the loss of the rear door and spare caused a much greater change in handling.

As Dave stated, a loaded truck handles the best. And if you're bent on using an M for expedition use:

1126141233.jpg (65.24 KiB) Viewed 5162 times

1126141232.jpg (63.71 KiB) Viewed 5162 times

One of these, loaded for bear, will do the trick.

[nicholastanguma]

My $.02. I decided to run around "T" style while I repainted and repaired my bed panels.

575855_309141509214815_1351258702_n.jpg

The lack of weight in the rear brought new meaning to the words "panic stop". Removing the rear roll member, canvas, and bow supports makes a minimal difference in braking or cornering. It seemed to me, the loss of the rear door and spare caused a much greater change in handling.

As Dave stated, a loaded truck handles the best. And if you're bent on using an M for expedition use:

1126141233.jpg

1126141232.jpg

One of these, loaded for bear, will do the trick.

You make these alu drawers, Andre?