Starter Problem

[og]

I am placing this post into Drivetrain section as it is more mechanical then electrical problem. Basically it started with a strange but not loud noise when starting the engine. At first I thought solenoid is not returning sprocket from a flywheel but that seemed far fetched. Also when coming to a stop there was strange whirring sound coming from somewhere below. Went for a ride today and parked in front of a garage. Came back and wanted to start a car to bring it into the garage. Click-spin. Starter is spinning but would not turn the engine.
I do not know if there is a distinct "clack" from a solenoid engaging the teeth, but if it is, I did not hear it. But starter was spinning OK.
I proceeded to remove the starter. I removed bottom bolt and noticed that starter is "dancing". Rubber mount broke. I removed the starter. Teeth were dinged and "stop ring" was cracked, had a 1/5th of it blown off. Flywheel teeth were dinged too. I can pull
sprocket out and it will return back under the action of the spring. I am enclosing pictures below. It is obvious that I need to get new mount and either fix or replace a starter. I have following questions:

1. How far does solenoid push sprocket into the flywheel?

2. Some teeth on flywheel appear dinged and cracked (did not turn the whole flywheel to check all teeth). Assuming the damage on the pic shows more or less worst of it, do I have to replace
the flywheel/ringgear too? That would triple the price of a repair
I am afraid.

3. What most likely caused this problem? Did cracking of a rubber mount caused the starter do interfere with a flywheel, or did some unusual interaction between the sprocket and flywheel caused cracking of a rubber mount?

4. What would be the the best way to extract small pieces still
present in the flywheel housing. Obviously if ringgear needs to be replaced, this is the last thing I need to worry about.

Your comments are appreciated. Please give a good tug (up down left right) to your starter before next drive. Pics below are thumbnails, click for full size pic.

OG

[Jim LaGuardia]

Replace the mounting plate, they get weak with age.
Starter and flywheel should be fine

[og]

Thank you Jim! I noticed one more thing which could have made this thing so bad. I was completely missing part 712.1.09.022.2, in manual called "nut plate". That plate, depending on the height of spacers on its end could have prevented this. Looks like my pinz was owned or worked on in the past by bubba who could not grasp the finer details of pinzgauer design. The four bolts holding the rubber plate were there, and two outer ones were terminated with a nut.
I suspect nut plate is not there because of a "nut" but because of the "plate". But then again, it seems this plate was dropped after 1984 when new type of starter was used.

OG

[spandit]

No nut plate on mine either - I suspect it was a later modification to prevent exactly what you describe (and what has just happened to mine)

[spandit]

Looking in the repair manual, on page 9, it says:

"Caused by defective vulcanization or cleansing agents it may happen that the rubber of the rubber pad of the starting motor comes off the bottom plate, by which the starter rim gear will be damaged or the vehicle breaks down respectively.

Therefore, the rubber pad from now on is regularly fastened at the top with a nut plate (figure 15/1), having simultaneously a retaining function. Even if the rubber should come off completely, the starting motor cannot fall down"

I can't get the two bolts undone that go into the engine block - there just isn't enough clearance to get the necessary Allen/hex key in and turn with enough torque - really beginning to piss me off

[og]

I would strongly recommend to all to check their pinz and see if nut plate is there. If it is not, these $20 it costs are well worth it. Rubber plate is $200, and if damage occurs on starter and God forbid flywheel ring gear, you are looking at much more.
To remove starter, you need crow-foot wrench for top bolt.
Sets are available on ebay for under $10 and your local store probably sells them individually. Also make sure you get longer Allen-head bolt. Standard, without plate is M8x20mm, while with plate you'll need M8x30mm, preferably galvanized. When mounting use anti-seize as threads on the engine side are in aluminum.

[spandit]

Getting the large nuts undone wasn't a problem - if you remove the oil filter you can get a normal spanner (wrench) on there. The one bolt I cannot undo is the top right socket cap - it's the one you need to get out to put the $20 part in and it's pretty much rounded off, despite liberal application of PlusGas.

Any ideas?