Newby in the UK - hello and some questions?

[ScottishPinz]

I'm only looking at the vehicles that can be really bought for reasonable money. Take your vampire, even if someone wanted one then they come on the market very rarely. TD Pinzgauers are fetching £30,000 upwards so the expensive £8,000-£10,00 Petrol pinz starts to look cheap. Landrovers and volvos are usually about £6,000- £9,000 all depends on condition and demand.

I'm happy with my 710k not looking to change!

[David Dunn]

The last 716K I saw on the continent was around 16000Euros.
The prices for them in the UK have been outragous.

btw, do you have any idea what a Vampire would fetched? There were 18, but at least 2 of them are gone forever....
It has less than 19000km, and the 21m mast, plus a bit of other hard to find kit

Dave Dunn

[ScottishPinz]

The european TD's are often trashed, bit of a project vehicle.
I have not seen one of the other Vampires up for sale for ages, but there is a radio body 101 and a prototype ambulance here http://milweb.net/classifieds.php?type=14

[David Dunn]

The reason the TDs ( on the market) are in "less than pristine" condition is that most of them were bought and "used" (an understatement) by private industry. They weren't given the care that we have seen from the Swiss trucks. In fact, if the Swiss weren't the main source of the Pinz surplus, I'd imagine that the gas Pinzes would not be in much better shape than the TDs..... or for that matter, any of the LRs of the same era. Few people remember ( or knew) that the Swiss tore down and re-bodied a lot of the trucks in the 90's.

Thanks for the link to milweb, I haven't looked through those pages in a long time. I'm glad to see that 101 prices are on a rebound....and if they can really get $60000 (current exchange rate for GBP), I should be happy for that too. I'm no fool, I'd sell the Pink Cow.

Cheers
Dave Dunn

[Anthony]

One used to be able to pick them up very cheaply in Sweden but some one in England has I believe inflated them up to make a killing. I do not know if anyone actually pays that price, I would not buy anything from them. I would prefair to either get one myself or go to an established dealer rather than one that keeps changing its name and popping up at the top of Goggle all the while. That is my opinion perhaps it is not someone else's.

As for what a vampire might be worth, have a talk with Nick in over in England. At one time I thought he were about to open a museum. He probably knows more about 101's than anyone that I know, he has had some very fine examples of most of them over the years including the Vampire. I think he had one of the first out I think. I remember years ago he had about 7, 101s all in tip top condition, showroom stuff. He did use them we had many an off road trip. It must be getting on for 20 years since I first met him, a thoroughly decent chap. I think he still has a few but he plays around with much bigger stuff as well like those Ex military multi wheel off road MAN. I remember him setting up a recovery business with a couple of them. Impressive stuff.

The last 716K I saw on the continent was around 16000Euros.
The prices for them in the UK have been outragous.

btw, do you have any idea what a Vampire would fetched? There were 18, but at least 2 of them are gone forever....
It has less than 19000km, and the 21m mast, plus a bit of other hard to find kit

Dave Dunn

[Anthony]

This one is a GS probably fitted for radio, I do not know why it is called a command vehicle http://www.milweb.net/webverts/43269/

The ambulance bodies were made at Marshals of Cambridge, they also made the Radio Body as well. I am not sure about the Vampire. Problem with the Ambulance versions are that they are very top heavy, the body is wider than the wheel track. They do make excellent campers though.

The european TD's are often trashed, bit of a project vehicle.
I have not seen one of the other Vampires up for sale for ages, but there is a radio body 101 and a prototype ambulance here http://milweb.net/classifieds.php?type=14

[psychoman]

OH,

by the way you do realise that their is another Manx Man on this Board who just happens to have a Volvo C304 TGB1314 ambulance 6x6. Perhaps if you ask him he will show you around it only he has taken out the engine for a heart transplant.

Which Ever Way You Through Me I Shall Stand


I do not know the Latin.

Think I know who you mean - and he's not a manxman, he's a scouser! I have another mate on the IOM with a 6x6 Volvo, but it is a big beastie. As for purposes: Laning, fun days, short-ish trips ( 10-21 days camping, maybe, max), European events such as the Croissiere Blanche and similar...

But keep the info coming!

Anthony - PM me re your 101?

Oh - and David - I think Scottishpinz was referring to 90s, cos thats what i have now. Over the last 15 years or so I've had a SIII 88", a RRC 3.5 V8, lots of Jap stuff, a Cherokee, my misses has a V8 Disco and I run a challenge spec 90! So the comparisons are helpful for me... Thanks.

[Profpinz]

G'Day Dave,

Your right as regards the 101 numbers .... I spoke to a few people who are into FC101's and I always had in my mind a figure of 3500, but they pointed me to these figures:

956-Series 12v RHD Home (British) 1322 Units
957-Series 12v RHD Export 28 Units
959-Series 12v LHD Export 583 Units
961-Series 24v RHD Home 170 Units
962-Series 24v RHD Export 92 Units
964-Series 24v LHD Export 474 Units
Total 2669 Units

As regards the Pinny figures..... hmmm, I agree the figures don't always stack up but there is a lot of misleading information around.
I'd love to know the absolute truth, but like any industry associated with the military there is always a degree of secrecy.

Steyr Daimler Puch were pretty good in talking to "enthusiasts" and supplying information, but as mentioned, like all companies with military links their were always "no-go" areas.
(However I had/have a fair few contacts that were helpful in supplying information)

Automotive Technik were less inclined to talk to "enthusiasts" and even more so after S&S/Armor got involved!
(Contacts were few, althought at times a little information trickled out )

BAE are a "tell em nothing" type company and the little bit of information that does escape is pretty lightweight and usually PR stuff that has been mulled over a thousand times

So given the above, here are some "stated" facts that can be referenced to written sources:

1967 – 1985 710/712 Pinzgauers 18,369 Pinzgauers built (Puch-Automobile 1900-1999, Friedrich F Ehn)
1985 – 1990 716/718 Pinzgauers 1826 Pinzgauers built (Puch-Automobile 1900-1999, Friedrich F Ehn)
Therefore:
1967 – 1990 710/712/716/718 + Hybrids 20,195 Pinzgauers built (Puch-Automobile 1900-1999, Friedrich F Ehn)

1967 - 1999 710/712/716/718 + Hybrids 24,000 Pinzgauers built (Steyr Puch - 100 Years, SDP)

1967 - February 2000 710/712/716/718 + Hybrids 24,000 Pinzgauers built (Puch, Egon Rudolf)

"More than 30,000 Pinzgauers are in operation today" (TVS - Stewart & Stevenson Brochure 2006/7)

We could split the TD models down further as you have eluded too, but that can be for another day

.... then there are the "maybe" correct statements by some generally pretty reliable sources such as:

In Oct, 2002, Janes Weekly stated "30,000 vehicles for 24 countries over nearly 30 years"..... yet after researching Janes own specific military vehicle publications (and other sources) that list countries, I can't come up with that many recipients, so is there something in this statement that possibly points to other uncounted vehicles?

....and finally we have the unsubstanciated rumours (and that's all they are) that:

Unknown quantities of Pinzgauers were sold to Syria in the 70/80's ... and possibly other various counties.

A lot of the above are really just smoke and mirrors but they do add intrigue to the numbers debate, however I heard the 34,000 figure from a "contact" in Europe not that long ago (unfortunately I don't want to mention his name) who like us is intrigued by the figures so maybe in the future at some stage more solid evidence will come to light.
I guess we can say it's somewhere between 25,000 (? You said lower than 26,000 Dave) and 34,000 (?)

BTW Dave, I understand AT had a production rate of about 10 Pinzgauers per week, so I guess your figure of about 500 vehicles a year is within the ballpark!

[David Dunn]

Oh - and David - I think Scottishpinz was referring to 90s, cos thats what i have now. .

I was referring to his website comparison, though it worked to your advantage.
My comments were to a comparisons of the attributes. The "Coil Spring" LRs are a big jump forward from the Series, just as the TDs were over the Gasser Pinzes (though some may argue it...but I don't know any )

Dave Dunn

[David Dunn]

Peter
"Smoke and mirrors" is probably the best description while talking about ATL and forward. Back in 2002 , the ATL website was mostly comprised of pics of Pinzgauers made in Graf, some being P80s and P90s. Plus those of 710s and 712s ( The pics of the Red Bull Pinzes come to mind.... I wonder if they had gotten permission to used them? )

With the introduction of the 716/18, came the European ISO VIN system that started at zero and continued sequentially ( without starting over at each year's beginning). The VIN is how the Steyr repair manual differentiates between changes in the cooling systems ( the last note is at VIN #1937, and the change to the P93 grille).
I wonder if ATL continued the numbering , or started over, and were any Pinzgauers produced with another dataplate or numbering system?

To me, the 500 number would be pushing it, and as with factory releases, quite optimistic ( the truth being as in.. "one week we DID make 10 vehicles")

Dave Dunn

[Erik712m]

There's 230 some odd in the US forces 716/718 Armoured The catches were made here in wichita. I've been told that they are making another 120 some for the pinz 2. I dug through the dumpster to retrive the over run but none really fit the 712 made great back stop tho.

[David Dunn]

Erik
Are you sure they are for the US military? Could they a part subcontract ?
There was at least one component supplied for the LR Vampire that was US made. And know of other parts that only available from the US.
If the US has purchased that many Pinzgauers, I would be sure whoever the original contract was awarded to ( ATL, S&S, Armor Holdings or BAE), I would be sure they'd be beating their chest and letting the world know. Nothing sell more vehicles than acknowledging a major purchaser. The New Zealand contract was for 340 +/-, and that had a good amount of press. And anything that protects our soldiers receives press.

Dave Dunn

[Anthony]

Perhaps their on lease. One does not hear too much about the Landrover Discoveries or the Landrover Defenders that the US Military use either.

[Erik712m]

i was told it was for us goverment not sub contract. I know they did build up a few toyota and ford trucks also for sub contract but those were in the real low numbers 10 and 12 last a was told they were over seas. They also are working on troop transport that is huge (bigger than the unimog)can't remeber the name but it is named after an animal i beleave it is replacing the hummvee from what they have told me they have done no hummvees to date. I was sum what supprized

[Erik712m]

Dave, the gaurd here has one unimog 416 and two buro's. I never new we had any buro's here ether