THE PORTAL HUB - Pinzgauers, Haflingers, Volvo 303s and more!

TechMOGogy wrote:

Andre wrote:
SNIP
If and elegant Frankenstein is what you want, Buy a Pinzgauer body and put it on a modern jeep/Land Rover chassis.

x2
It is one thing to rebuild it to factory new condition with some updates vs a resto mod

Rebuilt to factory new with some needed upgrades would seem to be the best option. Thank you, gentlemen.

I'm gonna go against the grain on this one. If ever there was a place for improvement on a Pinz, it's on the electrical system. I'd look into a higher output alternator, or install a second w "house" batteries, increase the wire gauge for possible 12V conversion after figuring out what I wanted to add. REPLACE every connector w Deutsch or similar and some good bonding for grounds.

Stekay wrote:I'm gonna go against the grain on this one. If ever there was a place for improvement on a Pinz, it's on the electrical system. I'd look into a higher output alternator, or install a second w "house" batteries, increase the wire gauge for possible 12V conversion after figuring out what I wanted to add. REPLACE every connector w Deutsch or similar and some good bonding for grounds.

How 'bout an entire stripping of the old 24 volt system and entire rewiring with a modern 12 volt system, including your included Deutsch connectors? Think this is even possible?

Yes. The schematic is as you know available and with the body off I wouldn't think twice about doing it. Check out places like "Spaghetti Wiring" they do very nice work among many others.

nicholastanguma wrote:

Stekay wrote:I'm gonna go against the grain on this one. If ever there was a place for improvement on a Pinz, it's on the electrical system. I'd look into a higher output alternator, or install a second w "house" batteries, increase the wire gauge for possible 12V conversion after figuring out what I wanted to add. REPLACE every connector w Deutsch or similar and some good bonding for grounds.

How 'bout an entire stripping of the old 24 volt system and entire rewiring with a modern 12 volt system, including your included Deutsch connectors? Think this is even possible?

Not to be funny but all the threads you have started all seem like "pie in the sky" type of stuff and questions.
Of course you can rewire it to 12v - any truck/car can be rewired given enough effort, time and cash.
Asking us without your own research and understanding of automotive knowledge let alone the specific Pinz stuff really gets you no where and makes it seem like your all over the map with this.
I am not trying to be negative as your potential project could be interesting and this forum is a great place to ask questions... However, it also may end up being a very difficult project if you don't know the basics about old military trucks - how they drive, how fast they go (in real life) common parts that fail, 24v vs 12v systems, things to look for, rust prone areas, etc, etc, etc
Have you inspected a Pinz, sat in a Pinz and/or driven a Pinz yet? If not, then perhaps that is the best place to start after you read this (the whole site!): http://madscientisthut.com/sdp-pin/html/site_map.html

I have owned several military vehicles and would never change over to a 12V system from 24V. Why on earth would you do this? If it is just to have something to do and you have too much money just floating around with nothing to do and you can't fine a 24V radio, you are in the wrong type of vehicles.
I have watched this thread from the beginning and for the life of me can't understand going through the hoops of sending it to Europe to get refitted when there are qualified people in the US. ...and like Technology has mentioned, it appears as if your dreams are large and somewhat 'pie in the sky'.
Use it and learn what it will do and what it won't...every time I take mine out I get a fresh education and I seem like a fool for not knowing my own limitations.

krick3tt wrote:every time I take mine out I get a fresh education and I seem like a fool for not knowing my own limitations.

Oh Morris, I could be such a smart a$$ here... But I won't. I so relate.



I was going to suggest to just go buy a Jeep, rather than reinvent the 12v wheel. But I thought that sounded more smarmy than funny, even by internet standards.

Many of us think the Pinz was very well engineered to begin with, and that it's darned hard to improve on it, at least without sacrificing something (sometimes big somethings). That said, it is human nature to invent things, and then to improve on them (provided there is a budget and perceived need).

So if you feel so inclined as to go 12v, please keep us updated, both pros and cons. That's how the truly beneficial modifications get sorted out from the less-so.

TechMOGogy wrote:
Not to be funny but all the threads you have started all seem like "pie in the sky" type of stuff and questions.
Of course you can rewire it to 12v - any truck/car can be rewired given enough effort, time and cash.
Asking us without your own research and understanding of automotive knowledge let alone the specific Pinz stuff really gets you no where and makes it seem like your all over the map with this.
I am not trying to be negative as your potential project could be interesting and this forum is a great place to ask questions...

If I'm going to be spending tens of thousands of dollars on having someone perform a restoration for me, why wouldn't I dream big?

Yes, this forum is a great place to ask questions. Which is part of researching Pinzgauers. Especially for restoration upgrades. Which is what I'm constantly asking about.

Pie is delicious, sir.

krick3tt wrote:I have owned several military vehicles and would never change over to a 12V system from 24V. Why on earth would you do this? If it is just to have something to do and you have too much money just floating around with nothing to do

Part of what I like to do with my money is buy rickety old cars and motorcycles. Seems to me a Pinzgauer fits right in. Hey, I'm not asking about spending any of your money, so no need to be offended.

Why might I be interested in switching over to a 12V system? Well, every old Jeep, hot rod, VW, and motorcycle that's ever come to me has been restored with modern 12 volt wiring. I'm not sure I see any benefits to retaining a forty year old 24V system if I don't have to just because it belongs to a Pinzgauer.

But, as several women have told me in the past, I don't know everything. If a 24V system is better than a 12V, please school me with some learnin for my edumacation knowledge.

Seems like lots of guys here are too afraid of mods to our cool trucks. Yes, they're well engineered for a military spec 45 years ago, but there have been a lot of improvements and changes in those years. Want to keep yours bone stock? No problem. Want an engine that works better for civilian offroad use with modern electronics and compression ratios? Personally I'd love it. Want a suspension that rides well without hauling around 9 buddies? Sounds pretty good to me too. How about disc brakes?

So far, all the EFI systems and Pinz SSI use a 12v sub-system, so why not integrate one? So far the only problem I've ever seen is the 24v starter. Good luck with that one...

I'm just a jealous old man, I wish I had your money. Sorry I spouted off. Didn't intend to be mean spirited just opinionated.

If a 24V system is better than a 12V, please school me with some learnin for my edumacation knowledge.

The operative word here is "better"; better than what? Depending on your position and perspective, better may be worse to others. But here goes:

Electrical systems have two things to deal with: voltage and current. As one or the other increases (typically both) you can get or transfer more power. So usually "better" means "more power".

For voltage, even common place insulators are good for many tens of volts; they typical cheap insulated stranded wire that is used in most automotive wiring harnesses are often rated at 300 volts maximum stress (yes, there are wires that are rated for only 20-30V dc applications, but even though they are rated that low they can really hold off hundreds of volts). So the difference between 12 volts and 24 volts is pretty inconsequential as far as insulation is concerned, and neither are a safety issue. Using 24V over 12V (all else being equal) means you can double the power that is piped around the truck. From this perspective, 24V is "better".

When current flows through a wire it creates heat. A larger wire (bigger cross sectional area) means less heat will be created. Wire area is measured and defined by AWG (American Wire Gauge) standards where a decrease of three gauges is almost a perfect doubling of the wire area (from #22 gauge to #19 gauge, for example). Decreasing another three gauges doubles the area again, so #16 wire has four times (4X) the area of #22. For the same amount of heat lost within the wire, #16 can carry four times the Amps that a #22 wire can carry. The amount of heat that can be allowed is defined by the type of wire insulation (how easily does it melt or burn?) and how many wires are bundled together (sandwiching something hot with other hot things makes the first even hotter). In house wiring, #12 gauge is allowed to safely carry about 20 amps maximum. Knowing that three gauge numbers doubles or halves the wire area, you can see that #15 wire could carry 10 amps, #18 can carry 5 amps, #9 can carry 40 amps, etc. and these are not "hard" current limits, but are a good rule of thumb.

Power (measured in watts) is voltage times current. So for the same power, if we double the voltage (from 12V to 24V) we only have to carry half the current. The wires can have half the area, take up less space, have less weight, and be more flexible. Connectors in the wiring harness carry less current. Less current is less heat, less chance of melting insulation, less chance of damage. Two batteries in series to create 24V only need to supply half the current for the same power; the batteries are not drained as fast.

So to convert a Pinz to 12V and keep all the lights, starter, ignition, accessories, blower, all that stuff at the same power level, every wire would be best replaced with a larger, thicker wire; the connections would need to be rated for the higher currents, and generally would have more wasted power (via heat) within the wiring harness unless the wires are made even larger. There is nothing wrong with doing this, but have you really gotten a big benefit from the effort of doing so?

So a 24V system is "better" due to less current which is easier on the wiring, connections, batteries, etc. The drawback is that there are not as many 24V devices as there are 12V parts; but most 12V "stuff" is fairly low power, anyway (heaters and winches are the exceptions) and can be easily powered if a 24V to 12V converter is used.

My opinion is that the 24V electrical system is an improvement over 12V; but I won't be trying to convert my autos to 24V, they are fine as they are at 12V. I'll shut up now.

Jimm391730 wrote:

If a 24V system is better than a 12V, please school me with some learnin for my edumacation knowledge.

The operative word here is "better"; better than what? Depending on your position and perspective, better may be worse to others. But here goes:

Electrical systems have two things to deal with: voltage and current. As one or the other increases (typically both) you can get or transfer more power. So usually "better" means "more power".

For voltage, even common place insulators are good for many tens of volts; they typical cheap insulated stranded wire that is used in most automotive wiring harnesses are often rated at 300 volts maximum stress (yes, there are wires that are rated for only 20-30V dc applications, but even though they are rated that low they can really hold off hundreds of volts). So the difference between 12 volts and 24 volts is pretty inconsequential as far as insulation is concerned, and neither are a safety issue. Using 24V over 12V (all else being equal) means you can double the power that is piped around the truck. From this perspective, 24V is "better".

When current flows through a wire it creates heat. A larger wire (bigger cross sectional area) means less heat will be created. Wire area is measured and defined by AWG (American Wire Gauge) standards where a decrease of three gauges is almost a perfect doubling of the wire area (from #22 gauge to #19 gauge, for example). Decreasing another three gauges doubles the area again, so #16 wire has four times (4X) the area of #22. For the same amount of heat lost within the wire, #16 can carry four times the Amps that a #22 wire can carry. The amount of heat that can be allowed is defined by the type of wire insulation (how easily does it melt or burn?) and how many wires are bundled together (sandwiching something hot with other hot things makes the first even hotter). In house wiring, #12 gauge is allowed to safely carry about 20 amps maximum. Knowing that three gauge numbers doubles or halves the wire area, you can see that #15 wire could carry 10 amps, #18 can carry 5 amps, #9 can carry 40 amps, etc. and these are not "hard" current limits, but are a good rule of thumb.

Power (measured in watts) is voltage times current. So for the same power, if we double the voltage (from 12V to 24V) we only have to carry half the current. The wires can have half the area, take up less space, have less weight, and be more flexible. Connectors in the wiring harness carry less current. Less current is less heat, less chance of melting insulation, less chance of damage. Two batteries in series to create 24V only need to supply half the current for the same power; the batteries are not drained as fast.

So to convert a Pinz to 12V and keep all the lights, starter, ignition, accessories, blower, all that stuff at the same power level, every wire would be best replaced with a larger, thicker wire; the connections would need to be rated for the higher currents, and generally would have more wasted power (via heat) within the wiring harness unless the wires are made even larger. There is nothing wrong with doing this, but have you really gotten a big benefit from the effort of doing so?

So a 24V system is "better" due to less current which is easier on the wiring, connections, batteries, etc. The drawback is that there are not as many 24V devices as there are 12V parts; but most 12V "stuff" is fairly low power, anyway (heaters and winches are the exceptions) and can be easily powered if a 24V to 12V converter is used.

My opinion is that the 24V electrical system is an improvement over 12V; but I won't be trying to convert my autos to 24V, they are fine as they are at 12V. I'll shut up now.

Adroitly written, clearly explained. Excellent, and thanks much for taking the time to teach! I think now I understand.

krick3tt wrote:I'm just a jealous old man, I wish I had your money. Sorry I spouted off. Didn't intend to be mean spirited just opinionated.

No offense taken. I also apologize if I seemed at all mean spirited in response.

The other point implied however not mentioned is that most of the vehicles that are upgraded to 12 volt systems started their life with 6 volt systems. When converting from a 6 volt system the wiring harness may remain the same as you cutting the amperage by half when you go to 12 volts. However going from 24v to 12v every wire in the vehicle should be changed.

When the threads concerning 12v vs 24v get started I sometimes wonder if anyone would follow the same thought process in regards to their welding gear i.e. would anyone feel a 110v welder would be an advantage if 220v power is available?