Engine won't turn over...

[berger]

Hey guys...been a while.

Recently I parked my truck at a friends to free up some room in the garage. I went over to start up the truck tonight and when I pushed the start button, she turned over, then there was a click and she wouldn't turn over again. There is a click when I push the starter and that is it. I didn't have any tools with me so I couldn't check anything. I have the Petronix and full civi ignition. She has been running great up until now. The breakers are all seated.

I did some searching but I just want to get some ideas on what it could be and how best to isolate the problem. Does what happened sound familiar to anyone? Coil, resistor , Petronix, starter?

Thanks guys.

[pcolette]

How well charged are the batteries? It almost sounds like there is enough juice to energize the solenoid but not turn over the starter. Also possible the starter solenoid has quit or is stuck.

[berger]

How well charged are the batteries? It almost sounds like there is enough juice to energize the solenoid but not turn over the starter. Also possible the starter solenoid has quit or is stuck.

I will check them for sure, but they are brand new. It was just such a sudden stop to the engine turning over.

Can you give the solonoid a whack if it is stuck?

[Jimm391730]

Can you give the solonoid a whack if it is stuck?

The click you hear is the solenoid pulling in; lack of sound might be a stuck solenoid, but a click means it is moving.

Simple test: turn on the headlights. Have someone look at them (in daylight) or see how bright they are when dark. Now push the starter button. Do they stay at least 3/4ths as bright? If so, batteries are good and the likely issue is the solenoid or starter. Do the headlights dim out to nothing (or seem to turn off)? If so, batteries are shot or bad wiring from the batteries to the starter, or from chassis ground to battery most negative (you can use a voltmeter to determine which is the problem). This trick works with any car as well (in a car, I use the dome light as I can see it myself, day or night).

Often times very low batteries will give a fast "click-click-click" sound; they have enough juice to pull in the solenoid, but when the starter is connected (at the end of the solenoid travel) the voltage is pulled very low and the solenoid relaxes back; then the batteries pull it in again, and this repeats. Fast clicks at first, gradually slowing, are signs of batteries being dead. If wiring was the problem then the click rate would be constant (I've never experienced this).

I expect that your "new" batteries are shot; there must be some parasitic draw in the truck, or someone forgot to turn off the battery key (or someone else turned it back on! ). No matter how new they were, spending a week dead in a deep drawdown will ruin them. Take them back for warranty replacement. They might recharge and seem to work but they will not last nearly as long as batteries that have not been drained dead, and they will never be as dependable.

[berger]

Thx Jim... I will do a more thorough test tomorrow.

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[berger]

Well...I am pretty certain the issue is with the two batteries. Thanks guys. I took them both home and they are trickling independently as I type this. I guess the initial turn over and sudden stop threw me.

When I tested both batteries they were at 12v each. I know that fully charged and functioning correctly they are over 13v each and roughly 27v when tested across the pair. Kicking myself though...as I have stored the truck for 4 winters now and never had a drainage issue...other than replacing the mismatched batteries PC installed in the truck. I think what happened is two fold...I left the kill switch in...and it seems that the drain is the dash light for the hand brake. Noticed that it stayed on when I disengaged the brake... don't know how i missed that. I am pretty certain the rear activator switch needs cleaning.

Anyway...final word tomorrow.

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[Jimm391730]

Batteries are funny, fickle beasts. Just because they read 12V (at rest) does not mean that they have even a few percent of the capacity that they are supposed to have. When a lead acid battery sits dead, the lead plates sulfate and this is essentially irreversible. The sulfated area of the plates is useless, and you don't know if 1% is sulfated or 99%.

But what can be done is to observe the battery voltage during high drain events, like cranking the starter motor. A reasonably fast responding meter on the dash will show you what voltage the batteries drop to during cranking. Anything over 20V (approximately 10 volts per battery) is acceptable. Anything less than 20 volts means one or both batteries do not have the capacity to supply the current that the starter needs and keep the voltage up to a reasonable value (like at least 10 volts). Once you get used to checking the cranking voltage, any deviation from normal (say you usually see 21.0 volts, but today you see 19.8 volts) gives you an early indication of a weak battery(s) and you can independently charge them to see if the cranking voltage goes back up to "normal". If after charging you see the cranking voltage drop again in a week or so then you probably start looking to replace one or both batteries, but most times the voltage will be good for many months again. AND, you can keep an eye on the charging system - you should expect to see 26 to 28 volts when running. Any more that that is overcharging the batteries (look to replace the voltage regulator), any less and you are either overloading the alternator or have a bad alternator. When you consider the cost to replace batteries or an alternator, a voltmeter (prefferrably dash mounted) is a very inexpensive accessory.

Batteries "at rest" should be about 12.6 volts (each) when fully charged, and having sat for a hour or two after charging. Batteries when cranking should be at least 10 volts each (20V total). When running, the charging voltage should be in the 26-28V range (measured at the dash wiring). A dash mounted voltmeter will see the voltage drop a few tenths of a volt when you turn on the headlights, a bit more if you turn on the fan, etc. but shouldn't change more than a volt or so at the worst case.

[berger]

Well...the Pinz keeps me humble that is for sure! Batteries fully charged...installed...nothing....same thing. I took some readings on the starter solenoid and it was showing the correct voltage...WTF. Then I remembered the ol ' Russian motorcycle adage WWID. What Would Ivan Do? Ivan would get a BFH and smack the starter around. Well, WWID served me well. The truck fired right up.

So what do you guys think? Rebuild the starter? The Canuck buck is in the toilet right now, so the EI starter isn't and option sadly. Is this something I can repair myself?

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[Jimm391730]

get a BFH and smack the starter around

Two reasons this would work:

1. The start has a bad segment in the rotor. If it stops with that bad segment under the brushes, nothing happens. Hitting the motor jars the rotor just enough to make contact with good segments, and away it goes (I had this happen with an old Volvo fuel injection pump).
2. The solenoid serves two purposes: one, it physically moves the pinion out to engage the ring gear on the flywheel. Two, as the solenoid reaches almost the end of its travel (meaning that the gears are engaged) it closes the connections to supply the high current to the starter motor. This is usually a copper washer that bridges between two contacts. The washer can get pitted from the arcing when engaging/disengaging, and not make good contact at times.

So it is kind of a crap shoot -- the motor itself could be bad, or the solenoid contact could be bad. You could first take the solenoid apart to see if it needs "fixing" (sometimes you can turn the copper washer around and use the other side - I used to do this with US made solenoids) and you could take the starter motor apart and probe for bad segments (but taking the motor apart is a much more daunting task). And if you find a bad segment, you'd be best off by just replacing it (I design and wind coils for a living, and I wouldn't want to try to fix my own starter).

The worst thing that could happen is that you break something and will have to get the EI gear reduction starter.

[berger]

While I cannot be 100% certain, I am thinking my place of temporary storage is partly to blame. It is in a friends very large, covered, Quonset-like horse arena. Needless to say, the floor is dirt. While I was under the truck I though I had a fuel leak, but it turned out there was so much condensation on the tank it was dripping. There is way to much damp and moisture in this place.

The truck will be removed this weekend.

Thanks again for the help!

[TechMOGogy]

While I cannot be 100% certain, I am thinking my place of temporary storage is partly to blame. It is in a friends very large, covered, Quonset-like horse arena. Needless to say, the floor is dirt. While I was under the truck I though I had a fuel leak, but it turned out there was so much condensation on the tank it was dripping. There is way to much damp and moisture in this place.

The truck will be removed this weekend.

Thanks again for the help!

I had to store in garage with a gravel floor - I put down a HD tarp and drove onto it, that will keep moisture from coming out of the ground under the truck.
(in case you store it back there again)

[berger]

While I cannot be 100% certain, I am thinking my place of temporary storage is partly to blame. It is in a friends very large, covered, Quonset-like horse arena. Needless to say, the floor is dirt. While I was under the truck I though I had a fuel leak, but it turned out there was so much condensation on the tank it was dripping. There is way to much damp and moisture in this place.

The truck will be removed this weekend.

Thanks again for the help!

I had to store in garage with a gravel floor - I put down a HD tarp and drove onto it, that will keep moisture from coming out of the ground under the truck.
(in case you store it back there again)

Ya...if it was a long term thing I would do that...but the truck will be back in my garage this weekend...and up for sale once I rebuild the starter.

Time for another toy. ☺

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[berger]

Just wanted to post an update...running the truck now for a few days the stuck starter has not reappeared!! Culmination of age and last place I stored it. Damp environment bad!

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