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Since we've been in a somewhat political vein on some of the other threads lately, after much debate I have decided to post this, and seek input from our fellow members who are on the other side of the ponds.

I'm not trying to stir something up here or demean or denigrate anyone in Europe ( I didn't write this) but I'm hoping that you all will comment on the veracity of this and attempt to enlighten me and others here in the US who probably don't have a clue as to what is really happening in your various countries. And Dennis, I'd appreciate your take on this also. So, here goes.

Subject: The Conquest of Europe

By Paul Belien

www.brusselsjournal.com/paulbelien )

The German author Henryk M. Broder recently told the Dutch Newspaper
"DeVolkskrant" that young Europeans, who love freedom, better emigrate.
Europe as we know it will not exist twenty years from now.

While sitting on a terrace in Berlin during the interview, Broder
pointed to the other customers and the passers-by and said, "We are
watching the world of yesterday."

Europe is turning Muslim. As Broder is sixty years old he is not
going to emigrate.

"I am too old," he said. However, he urged young people to get out
and "move to Australia or New Zealand . That is the only option they have
if they want to avoid the plagues that will turn the old continent
uninhabitable."

Many Germans and Dutch, apparently, are not waiting for Broder's
advice. The number of emigrants leaving the Netherlands and Germany has already surpassed the number of immigrants moving in. One does not have to be prophetic to predict, like Henryk Broder, that Europe is becoming Islamic.

Just consider the demographics.

- The number of Muslims in Contemporary Europe
is estimated to be 50 million.

- It is expected to double in twenty years. By 2025, one third of
all European children will be born to Muslim families.

- Today Mohammed is already the most popular name for newborn boys in Brussels , Amsterdam , Rotterdam , and other major European cities.

Broder is convinced that the Europeans are not willing to oppose
Islamization. "The dominant ethos," he told De Volkskrant, "is perfectly
voiced by the stupid blonde woman author with whom I recently debated.

She said that it is sometimes better to let yourself be raped than to
risk serious injuries while resisting. She said it is sometimes better
to avoid fighting than run the risk of death."

In a recent Op-Ed piece in the Brussels newspaper De Standaard the
Dutch (gay and self-declared "humanist") author Oscar Van Den Boogaard
refers to Broder's interview. Van den Boogaard says that to him coping
with the Islamization of Europe is like "a process of mourning." He is
overwhelmed by a "feeling of sadness."

"I am not a Warrior," he says, "but who is? I have never learned to
fight for my freedom. I was only good at enjoying it."

Consider that in all of Europe no one under the age of 65 has picked
up arms in defense of their country. That task has been borne by the
United States since Hitler surrendered in 1945.

As Tom Bethell wrote in this month's American Spectator: "Just at the
most basic level of demography the secular-humanist option is not
working." But there is more to it than the fact that non-religious
people tend not to have as many children as religious people, because
many of them prefer to "enjoy" freedom rather than renounce it for the
sake of children.

Secularists, it seems to me, are also less keen on fighting. Since
they do not believe in an afterlife, this life is the only thing they
have to lose. Hence they will rather accept submission than fight. Like
the German feminist Broder referred to, they prefer to be raped than to
resist.

"If faith collapses, civilization goes with it," says Bethell. That
is the real cause of the closing of civilization in Europe .

Islamization is simply the consequence. The very word Islam means
"submission" and the secularists have submitted already. Many Europeans
have already become Muslims, though they do not realize it or do not want to admit it.

Some of the people I meet in the U.S. are particularly worried about
the rise of anti-Semitism in Europe . They are correct when they fear
that anti-Semitism is also on the rise among non-immigrant Europeans. The latter hate people with a fighting spirit. Contemporary Anti-Semitism in Europe (at least when coming from native Europeans) is related to
anti-Americanism.

People who are not prepared to resist and are eager to submit, hate
others who do not want to submit and are prepared to fight. They hate
them because they are afraid that the latter will endanger their lives as
well. In their view everyone must submit.

This is why they have come to hate Israel and America so much, and
the small band of European "Islamophobes" who dare to talk about what
they see happening around them. West Europeans have to choose between submission (Islam) or death. I fear, like Broder, that they have chosen submission - just like in former days when they preferred to be Red rather than dead.

Europeans apparently never read John Stuart Mill: "War is an ugly
thing, but not the ugliest of things; the decayed and degraded state of
moral and patriotic feeling which thinks nothing is worth a war, is
worse."

"A man who has nothing which he cares more about than he does about
his personal safety is a miserable creature who has no chance at being
free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than
himself."

Andy
An interesting subject, one that I wouldn't have raised personnally on this forum but since you have opened the debate here goes.

I believe we are seeing the demise of the Western civilization as we know it. Having endured for about 600 years but certainly since Ferdinand & Isobella and the recalmation of the Ibero Peninsular from the Moors and the Califate of Baghdad. We are seeing the gradual formation of "EurAbia".

I see a Europe much changed from what it was, is now and in about 50 years it will be drastically different. I will be gone by then (unless I live to see 110 years) but I see a dominant muslim administration and region stretching from Cap Finistere to Kuala Lumpur all, predominantly adhering to the doctrines of a new Califate presided over by Mullahas. Frankly I fear for my kids who will inherite this new order. Probably by implemented force/or gradual permissive conquest.

In Britain my birthplace we can often ask how did we get to this from where we were in the 1960's a predominantly WASP nation. Simply put through unfettered immigration that has over time diluted what is essentially British. In 1968 one Enoch Powell MP and shadow Minister in the Heath Conservative Gov gave a speech in Wolverhampton that rocked the establishment and got him fired for inciting racial conflict. Dock workers came out on strike to support him but the Liberals had villified the minister to such an extent that sadly there was no going back. The life and times of this extraordinary man, a poet, scolar, soldier, and openly religious indicated that unless we in Britain contained immigration (especially from Pakistan & India) we would change the face of country for ever. Go to Wikipedia to read the speech which is sadly has come to pass in earie reality from his predictions some 30 years ago. It amazes me that an obscure religious sect (Wahabism) has managed to rise out of the obscure Arabian Bedu to a point where it now dominates the mosques in London and Wolverhampton where the alarm bell was first rung. The order has indoctrinated young moslem Brits to act as street thugs in the inner cities much like the thugs of the rising Hitler in the 1920's & 30's. the same it would appear can be seen in most of the big European cities like Amsterdam, Paris, & Berlin.

In the 10th century the Vatican promoted a war (Crusades one of three) against the Seljuk Turks as a Christian cause. Then the populous of Europe was fervent Catholic, today the Christian religion plays a miniscule role in our lives replaced by rampant materialism and complacency. Immigrants are having the kids not the White Europeans who are actually in decline. Germany has some of the highest numbers of population decline.

I find it funny that in spite of all the efforts to apprehend Osama Bin Laden he is still out there influencing home grown terror cells as some modern day Robin Hood pitted against the evil Shire Reeve of Nottingham and that evil King John 1 (Now he was evil a Cheney in drag perhaps) (Sorry Gotta inject some humour at this stage)
So what of N America you might ask. Well my vision is much of the same except it will take longer to jump across the pond. Much of this population is still of a Christian mindset and with its huge Latin population the opportunities to gain Moslem converts is much more difficult. The signs are there though. Look to the mid west and already the mosques are springing up.
Andy an interesting subject I could go on for hours on this but that's my statemenst and fears on this subject. The others of concern are Muslem Pakistan and the Muslem atomic bomb, Iran and its search for the 12th Imam by conflict with the USA/Isreal. All sobering stuff!
Best regards
Dennis

The article and its implications is rather ominous. I did debate for several days whether or not to post it. But, since we have people here on the forum who are living this, I thought I'd see what Jacques or Anthony, or ScottishPinz had to say if anything. Even our friend downunder might have an input since the article recommends migration to Australia. We've had dscussion here about migration to Australia I think in the WI DOT thread. We've had several other threads that deal with things associated with what may be coming such as the thread about the previous generation in WWII versus my skepticism about the current state of affairs amoung American youth.

I asked for your input because 1: You are somewhat Americanized and can see the culture here without missing the forest because of the trees. 2: You have traveled extensively and have a basis for comparison 3: You apparently have lived and worked in Moslem countries.

BTW, my overall thoughts pretty much parallel yours. The thread itself is not directly related to Pinzgauers, but the overall impact of the article, if it is true, will affect our lives and how much we get to use them.

Andy wrote:I asked for your input because 1: You are somewhat Americanized and can see the culture here without missing the forest because of the trees. 2: You have traveled extensively and have a basis for comparison 3: You apparently have lived and worked in Moslem countries.

Gosh Andy,

One can talk for hours over this subject. I have lived for 12 years in the USA, have travelled all over the world and have worked for 7 years in Dubai.
As to the subject. It is something that has been started a long time ago and cannot be stopped. We are indeed getting more and more muslim in Europe. UK is getting them mainly from India and Asia, France is getting them mainly from Marocco, Algeria, Tunisia and some other African countries, Belgium is also getting them from ex-french speaking colonies and Germany is getting a lot of them from Turkey. Other European countries have also shown an increase of muslims. We are not going to be able to reverse this trend and are not willing to do it. The european population is growing old and getting less and less kids - so we need newcomers in order to perform some of the work, contribute to our health care and retirement funds, otherwise there will be an end to it.
Just like in the US there is the freedom of speech and religion here, and we do not have a problem with muslims - in fact - why should we. Just like in any religion you will always find a handfull of fanatics and a whole bunch of believers. Remember the bloody relationship in Ireland between catholics and protestants. This lasted also for decades and we got over it. In fact there is a general misconception about the muslims and too often beleived because of terrorism. Far too often the finger is pointed and unjustified political actions are hidden behind the word terrorism. It is often the action of the few that cost the burden to the many. And should there really be such a thing as a threat, isn't it wiser to keep your enemy close to you rather than out of sight. At least you'll be able to keep an eye on him.
Most of us don't care about these higher rates of muslim people coming into Europe as we are all simply focusing on the quality of our life and how to preserve it - which also means keep the funds coming into our health and retirement care. But if you look closely, behind the religious believe, you will find a human person - and the world is full of people, good and bad ones, and none of them are confined in a specific reliogion and/or specific area of the world.

There is more to say, but the truth lies in the heart and the logic thinking of everyone's mind.

Best regards,

Jacques

Jacques, thanks for speaking up. I didn't think it was all doom and gloom. I've seen comments elsewhere related to the "graying" of Europe and the US as well. You and Dennis (and I hope others) having been to these areas and countries can do a lot to enlighten those of us whose world is seldom more than 50 miles across.

Even taking news stories, print or TV, with a pound of salt, everything related to the religious aspects of it all is usually negative to some degree. The west is becoming non-religious while the east is becoming fanatical and so forth. Just today I saw headline on the Drudge Report that said something about Fortress Britain related to the new inquires that will be made of travelers. How do I seperate fact from fiction or scare tactics made to sell ad space or incite people? One of the drawbacks to the internet and information age I suppose.

One thing I was exposed to years ago in the Navy was, people are people, they all need to eat, they all need shelter, they need to belong (be it to a tribe, a family, a religon, whatever), and we all bleed red.

Thanks again for the input.

Regards,

Andy

I am not really sure what you’re asking an opinion about.
The Guy that you mention I think is considered to hold with right wing views but other than looking him up on the internet I know little of him.

I am not against any colour or race and if Brittan where to become totally black or yellow except for me it would not worry me. Religion on the other hand, no matter which one, including Christianity always has its extremist elements, those who want to impose there views on others, using force if necessary. The thing which is more unsettling than colour is culture. Often religion and culture go hand in hand. It can be uncomfortable when one is surrounded by a culture or cultures that are alien to ones own. It can be uncomfortable to be surrounded by people of ones own supposed culture. I live in Wales the so called land of song and culture, well there is more culture in a leak. I never ever considered my nationality before I came to live in this beautiful country side but the English in Wales are loathed and very conceivable object is put in the way to frustrate and prejudice you if you are English. It is a very unequal society here in Wales. I generalise of course and that is the dager, it would be very easy for me to castigate an entire sub country when in fact there is one or two very nice people. Unfortunately the state government in GB and the crown which are linked historically and tied together, unfortunately they both have legal ties with christianity, it is not representative of today’s society. I would prefer first not to have the crown at all as I do not support monarchy, and politics should be completely secular as should all schools in my view. I would say that, the majority of people in this country of GB are secular in nature, but whose forefathers most likely have held loyalty to one faith or another, Protestantism or Roman Catholism. Very few go to church here; very few give religion as much as a thought. Unless one travels to Northern Ireland or some parts of Scotland no one really gives a stuff what you are as long as one keeps it to ones self. Immigration in small numbers is not a problem in my opinion, but when large numbers of people with differing cultures and religions come into a country within a short time then problems can occur. People holding secular views have found some sort of freedom and they do not want to give this up by having to tip toe around people who have religion what ever that is. They certainly do not want to have to toe the line and conform to a religious view.

I have had friends ho were Muslims and had no issues with them, not all Muslims are fundamentalists. I have had friends who are Sikhs; I even went to a Sikh wedding many years ago in Glasgow wearing a turban. It was amazing looking at the faces of Glaswegians seeing a non Asian wearing a turban getting out of a bus, full of Indian chaps.

The problem with politicians making passionate speeches denigrating immigration like E. Powel is that it smells of National Socialism. Who knows what their agenda is, especially when they are in opposition and not in power. Are they making a statement of their deeply held convictions or are they trying gain popularity and to rebel rouse.

Well I live about two miles from a mosque and have several muslim friends. So I think I will change the subject Anthiny have you ever done the Mumbles mile?

Eric,

I have enjoyed the country side near to the mumbles Worms Head but not walked or drank in the "mile" Have you?

Erik Maybee wrote:Well I live about two miles from a mosque and have several muslim friends. So I think I will change the subject Anthiny have you ever done the Mumbles mile?

The posting of the article or whatever it was is in no way meant to be Muslim bashing in case someone thinks that. That's why I said it wasn't meant to denigrate or demean anyone. I do not know enough about Muslims to even a have an opinion.

Anthony, I can relate to being in a place where the entire culture is different from what you are used to. My main experience with that was coming to the border area of Texas to work in an environment that is 98% Hispanic. I understand the prejudice of people who view one as an outsider and they way the can ever so quietly frustrate everything you try to do.

But, for you and Jacques or anyone else in Europe or elsewhere, is the Muslim population in Europe really that large? Is it sort of like here where immigrants from Spanish speaking countries no longer have to or even try to assimilate? To me this poses a potential danger, here and possibly abroad, where all of a sudden a country can find itself divided by two totally different sets of values or very divergent propectives on the way things are or should be. Is there the potential for conflict between the haves and the have nots? In this case not necessarily economic "haves" but cultural and religious haves and have nots.

I hope I'm not boring you all, but this is fascinating stuff that people should be aware of, especially here where our collective heads are so often stuck in the sand until something kicks us in the rump.

I don't know about British laws, but our US constitution grants us Freedom "OF" religion, not freedom "FROM" , and therefore those emigrating here need to except the fact that other religions exist here, and not worry how thier neighbors are praying. Pray as you wish , but don't push religious views unto those who are not interested in those sects.
And if all else fails and they can't conform to our societies laws and culture, they are welcomed to leave and go back to thier own countries
I seem to remember an article on the AP a few months back where the Pres or Vice Pres of Austrailia had the same view
It seems the Ausies won't take cr*p from the local Imams, and have even deported a couple of them
Thats enough fodder for one day............just my 2 cents

Andy,

In England there are a few cities that appear and( I say appear because I do not know the facts I only know what I have seen and what is reported) to be predominantly Asian I do not know what religion but possibly Muslim. Leicester, Bradford and a few others there are many cities with large population as well. This does not mean that there is going to be a civil war. Most of which are law abiding family poeple. There are a few clerics who try to stir up the younger more impressionable people. There has been some strife reported that had a racial tone in Burnley or Blackburn I forget the details but it was the teenage population that was involved and as usual with this sort of thing it was during a hot summer I recall.

After 911 the Muslim and Asian community went to great lengths to show there horror and disgust at what had happened and the same after the London Bombings. Their were incidents of Muslims and other Asians being attacked by vigilante nationalist racist groups this included some fire bombings. Some Asians also felt that they were being targeted by police and other security agencies ( yes we have secret police too).

What is often forgotten that many Asians are as English as I am, they have been here for generations and as a whole are seen as very hard working.

I often think that a bigger effort should be made by the authorities to help with integration, this is possibly too late now. There are whole schools were no English is spoken so I have heard but I do not know this for a fact.

I do not think that there is a big problem, I do think that it would be easy for folks to become polarized if there was too much friction. there are always some who will take advantage of any opportunity to stir up hatred on all sides to further their political ambitions.

there is a big resentment felt by these communities of how oppressed they feel the Muslim world is by the west. I mean the middle east. They see the favoritism shown to Israel as opposed to the suppression and occupation of the Arab world. They feel that there is a great injustice in this and they are not the only ones who think this way.

Anthony, I was curious about the "riots" and car bombings in Paris last year that were very carefully reported here. But, even though the acts were apparently by Muslims younger types there was still in my mind no real explanation.

There are many schools here in the southern half of Texas where I promise you English is not the primary language, so that is probably nothing unique.

I'm certain there are many Asian folks in the Isles given the centuries of British influence in Asia, for example Hong Kong and Singapore.

I don't have a crystal ball, but with current feelings here it is not difficult for me to see polarization here in the US between Angelos, Hispanics, and Blacks. In those areas there are those here too that spread hate and discontent to further their own needs using the voiceless as a tool. Plus, it seems that the population of "useful idiots" here in the US is growing by leaps and bounds.

I'm not sure anymore on what to think about the whole Mid East mess. In my younger days I thought Israel was pretty tough (I'm trying to remember and I think it was after the 6 Day War), now in my old age I'm seeing things in a different light, but again, I don't have enough facts of any type to come up with a valid, fact supported, opinion. The whole Israel/Palestinian issue is so muddled to my mind. On one hand I can see where the Palestinian's should have something, but where are Jordan and Syria on that? On the other hand I wonder why they Arabs can't just leave Israel alone, it doesn't seem like they are trying to expand their borders to any large extent. I wonder how much of US policy on Israel is influenced by the rather large Jewish population on the East coast of the US. I'm sure it is to a degree, but is it as bad as the detractors want everyone to believe? I don't know.

I really appreciate you and Jacques weighing in on this whole deal because it shows things in a much different light than what I can gather on my own or what is fed to the public by the media.

I'm surprised at what you say is the view point of some that the US is suppressing the Arab world. It doesn't seem like it from here. But, again, that could be just a little nationalism or something keeping me from seeing it.

Regards,

Andy

Andy,

I am very careful to try not to point a finger because GB less than 100 years ago was practically in the same position as the US and they did not treat the world with kid gloves either out of the top of my head look at the far east and the British attitude with China. the other reason is it is very important to keep things in perspective, often the actions of governments are not wholly supported by its poeple. So it is easy to offend some one by saying the US this the US that or GB this and GB that what we should be saying is the British government or the US Government did such and such, it is then less of a personal attack and peoples sensitivities are less offended.


The situation in the middle east is complex and there are many players each with its own agenda. There is the oil and then there is the strategic importance of the area which has been the same for a thousand years. The middles east is a ping pong between great powers for a very long time. In recent centuries British French Russian Ottoman German and recently US Powers have interceded and tried to dominate the area to prevent any one of the others in the equation getting a hold and further access to other regions. China is the biggest threat and that is why I think we or the US is there. I see Israel as being in effect an aircraft carrier giving the US a very powerful Allie in the region. Israel has its own agenda strongly supported by the very strong Jewish lobby in the US. It would be a brave move by a US president to slap Israel's hand it would be political suicide. Israel has no interest in an independent Palestinian state and go to great length to destabilise the area for its own ends. The Arab states also have agendas. The thing that strikes me is that the ordinary poeple are just pawns they have no say they just suffer and etch a living as best it can. I think that the west has made big mistakes in policies in the middle east we back the wrong players but internal politics at home make this inevitable. We do not have the moral high ground even in the whole region. We can not go on about terrorists and insurgents on one hand and yet back those very resources when it suits us. The very poeple who are giving us a hard time in Afghanistan were doing the same to the Russians not that long ago, being armed by us.

There is no easy solution but a change in direction might not be a bad start. The changes in Northern Ireland are staggering and an example. I think that is the only thing that Tony Blair can be praised for in his whole political life. The solution did not make every one happy there was give and take all round, a lot of initial mistrust but it all came good in the end. Poeple are so happy and can just get on with normal life. Poeple on both sides of the divide can get on together. The most amazing turn around is by the leading politicians in NI, it is just mind blowing. poeple are actually returning to NI. New poeple are moving over there with families and taking up employment, it is really good.

These are just a few things passing through my mind but the subject is massive and very complex with lots of influences. I know only a very little and it is very generalist.

Just some thing that I read a month or so ago. I read a statement that stated the US government has destabilized and overthrown I think it said 54 independent governments since WWII. I am trying to remember where I read this and I can not remember all of the details but that gives some food for thought.

I have to agree with Jim. If you want your children to grow in the same type of society that you did, then change is not good. The muslim religion has nothing to do with how I grew up or how I want my family to experience after I am gone. I rejoice ( is that Christian) in my lifestyle and way of life. I raise beef for a living and my understanding of the muslims is that they are mostly anti-meat. Correct me if I am wrong, but I have never seen a muslim cowboy? --plus I think they would get awfully hot wearing those towels while working cattle!
The United States was founded on freedom of religion--keep in mind that was differences in the Christian religion ( in my opinion). I like it that way.
Have a hay day with that.

john

Springhill, I agree with you and Jim, but to me it seems like we are having an awful lot of stuff rammed down our throats by people who don't like the idea that this country was founded basically on Christianity. Why is that all of a sudden colleges are putting foot bathes on campus, for a religious minority and yet they ban Nativity Scenes? I don't see too many stories about communities telling the ACLU to shove it.

If the article I posted is correct then whatever happens in Europe and the Mid East, never mind the Far East yet, will impact on us here.

Sides are being chosen. I suspect much of it has to do with old animosities and idelogies, but much has to do with oil. All of a sudden the Russians and the Chinese are good buddies with Iran. Russia has oil, they just can't quite get to it easily and China with its growth desperately needs it.

Our elected representatives have hoisted us on our own pitard by not drilling offshore in Florida or the Northeast. I don't see a rush to build nuclear power plants that would take forever to come online anyway. War machines, and our economy, run on oil. What are we going to do if push comes to shove? Invade Canada and Mexico? The quest for resources and the cutting off of those resources had much to do with the war in the Pacific during WWII. Methinks the globe is getting to that point again in the not too distant future. Just my opinion.

Cheers

Andy