Interesting discovery from SOLAR equalizer

[audiocontr]

For those who may not have much experience with these units, they are finicky! I popped mine almost instantly. After a nice discussion with the guys at SOLAR, we came up with what causes the damage and what can be done to fix it.

It all comes down to the starter really. When two batteries are installed but are unequal - due to previous 12v tapping, or simply age - the starter draw can be higher for 1 battery over another. The EQ tries to compensate for this and pops the internal fuses due to the large amperage draw from the starter. The amperage can be so high (and quick) that damage can happen before the fuses pop.

Relays (or switches) should be used to sever the white and red wires when starting a vehicle.

I can easily accomplish this with switches, except for that one time I forget.

I wonder if adding relays that open when I press the starter button would work?

[Skeej]

Great post and thanks for the tip- Vince, could it be a sticky?

I'm a noob who wants to power a 12V CB and at some point add a couple more items on that same 12v power source- GPS charger, Ham handheld charger, maybe someday a ham mobile set- the newer models that are as small as a car stereo would fit nicely in one of those Tuffy overhead consoles,
and I now see where having a cigarette plug outlet for the once in a while items would be handy too-
someone posted on electric blankets for passengers- nice for the wife or kids in back and a lot cheaper than an Eberspacher...

So, I'm doing my homework in advance and very grateful to all who have gone ahead and shared so much....I'd guess there are others like me-

doing my careful homework in advance-

here's my take-
there seems to be three or four "good" ways to do this- depending on how simple you start, that represent a shift in technology solution,
as you add power or reliability requirements

1. tap the existing batteries

a.I am getting advice from a couple of credible sources saying you can tap "the lower battery" but also recall a somewhat ironic post from earlier here that cautions against "tapping the center" - (whatever that is), to use 12V power from the two batteries for small loads.

2. use the solar converter equalizer/shargers- I'm assuming this takes care of balancing the load, which gives greater protection to the batteries, but your post suggests another item is needed.

3. 24VDC to 12VDC down-converter- many old posts noting some boxes not so reliable- so the question is- what manufacturer of boxes is, based on actual experience, and whats a reasonable price to value range?

4. Separate battery source, like in marine or high end RV typical install-
which then brings in the question of what, it one for 12v, or two for 24v backup, and
where installed, and
how to charge that up, and switch in and out without blowing things up.

I have seen a couple of real fancy setups online and in person that I admire, and see a lot of discussion on other expedition vehicle websites, but I notice the best experience in the pinz appears to be right here on Real 4x4, so with apologies to posters elsewhere,

I am asking Pinz owners and experts here, to pls share your comments and tips, in response to this thread,

and I will bring in what I learn, after its proven, in my rig or by credible sources elsewhere.
:idea:

[Jimm391730]

The big drawback to using the lower battery (with or without an equalizer) is that when the battery key is OPEN (battery turned off) the 12V appliances are still connected between the midpoint between the two batteries and the CHASSIS. If you turn on the key and push the starter button you get NEGATIVE 12V from the "upper" battery across the appliances -- essentially hooking your appliances, radio, whatever, BACKWARDS with red to negative and black to positive. This usually wipes out radios and the like.

Winches are the exception - they will try to run backwards, but who would be using a winch with the battery key off? It's not a likely senario. But radios and the like are usually always connected and they can not take the reverse voltage.

A separate 24-12V converter is the safest way to go. When the battery key is off, they don't run, so the radio and such are safe. But these only work well for medium to low current loads. So far the best deal I've found has been from Astronics (made by MeanWell). They have a 350W (29 amp) converter for around $130. Been running my FI system and pump for three years now with no issues at all.

Best of luck,

Jim M.
712W and 710M

[Skeej]

thanks Jim, great info- like your 24V house bank charged by solar- thats seems to be the most clean setup, isolated from the engine, but you can still just jumper cable someday if you need to start the dead engine batteries, right?

Saw some fancy wiring in rigs at Goatwerks and admire the tech, but me, personally- I'm leaning to simple- anything I can leave switched wrong that will fry something- so it needs to be idiot-proofed so I dont.

Any 710K owners who have experience putting spare batteries on the deck, under the seats, behind to tool box- just ahead of any other supplies, like water jugs- see pic here-

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/Z6 ... directlink

eyeballing it looks like enough room between the water jugs and toolbox to put them all in a row side by side- 2, 3 or 4?

Any other 710K or others done same- tips?
How about heat from the muffler below?
These would rest on horse stall mats or something like it for insulation and some cusioning, with some sort of hold-down like the racks in the battery box.

Looking for all the best ways to keep added weight low in the middle for best c.g., and in addition to being bolted down, they'd be snug along with any other heav stuff under the metal rack, ideally so none of it floats around in kids heads and the dog, sleeping bags, etc in zero g, someday, should I go rolling about like a tumbleweed or a$$ over teakettle... speaking of which:

Ya shoulda seen my boys eyes widen (as he watched from outside at a safe distance) as Old Dad drove down "Canyon Sin Nombre" in a particularly steep spot - been there 20 years ago but first time in the Pinz-- a little test drive getting ready for Truckhaven--yes I SHOULD know better but got the front wheels a tiny bit too far cocked on a turn, and they dug in some on the softest sand in the holes between dipsydoodles on the 45 degree down slope-

lets just say the Pinz did a dainty dance and a little pirouette on her nose there for a couple dozen heartbeats....a true lady she gracefully let set her butt back down, nice and easy...

as noob here realized all that extra dirt suddenly in the front picture window was a hint...

GET OFF THE DANG BRAKES and let the low-low gear and engine do the braking....

[Jon_Gilbart]

I also am looking to add a converter and an inverter to my 712M, and was told that Redarc converters (specifically the SMF20 or 30) would be a very good, albeit pricey, way to go. Anyone 2nd that? The yahoo groups list of converters seems to have a lot of converters that people used that have NOT worked, but not a lot of options of converters that HAVE worked. What about inverters? Thanks. -Jon

[Skeej]

I agree- lots of info out there- I've got dozens of bookmarks and notes from various places= analysis paralysis!

Lotta smart owners here- I defer to them on what works-

FYI, You might try asking Scott at EI, or Sarah at SAV what their experience has been, or what they have heard from other Pinzers works best.

Jim LaGuardia at Goatwerks is another good source - he's seen a lot of different setups I think.

(....checking....hmmm, coulda sworn Scott had a link to one manufacturer that does milspec stuff, used by a lot of Humvee and Fire Dept customers- cant find it now and will have to dig into my notes. PM if you need it).

Here is a link to a business run by a SoCal pinz owner and ham.
http://impulse-electronics.com/sub_cate ... s&cat_id=6

Marvin has what sounds like a good set up and has offered to help me wire in a CB when I get all set, might give you some good advice.

Here is my request - one box that
takes 24V in,
couple terminals for 12V out to hardwire stuff to, like CBs,
plus a couple cigarette plugs built in, to run the electric blanky,
and
120V out too- couple places to plug in the blender for margaritas, the beer cooler-
and, automatic idiot proofing so it doesnt go up in flames, or toast everything if I hook it up wrong!

and a voice that says - your batteries will be dead in xx minutes if you keep this up, pal...

Hey, I'm a noob- I can dream, right?

[M Wehrman]

a voice that says - your batteries will be dead in xx minutes if you keep this up, pal...


You can never have too many batteries and I like your way of thinking! My Volvo has dual voltage systems(12&24v alts) so 3 batts for starting,and 3 Optima marines for the box. Add 135w worth of solar and this will keep the fridge,radio,microwave and the tv going for days! Somewhere along the way I've lost the Military utilitarian thing...........
Mark

[Jon_Gilbart]

Here is my request - one box that
takes 24V in,
couple terminals for 12V out to hardwire stuff to, like CBs,
plus a couple cigarette plugs built in, to run the electric blanky,
and
120V out too- couple places to plug in the blender for margaritas, the beer cooler-
and, automatic idiot proofing so it doesnt go up in flames, or toast everything if I hook it up wrong!

and a voice that says - your batteries will be dead in xx minutes if you keep this up, pal...

Yeah--that's exactly what I'm looking for, as well! Just one request though--I want the voice telling me the battery is going to die to be that of Mr. T, yelling "Your batteries are gonna die, you fool!" I think that would be the only voice I could hear over the noise of the Pinzgauer! -Jon

[Erik712m]

Mark, at some point you have to ask is ten tons of $hit in a one ton of space going to effect the offroad ability? Some how redbull keeps popping up in my head when you say just add more.

[pinzwheeling]

Mark, at some point you have to ask is ten tons of $hit in a one ton of space going to effect the offroad ability? Some how redbull keeps popping up in my head when you say just add more.

HEY!!! I resemble that remark.

[M Wehrman]

Gee Eric,didn't know you could be so crewl .... ...Well I've been able to go where I've wanted to up to this point, and in comfort! Believe it or don't,that 9ft tall Volvo feels a lot better off road than my 712,difference is the Volvo really articulates. I've had many various RV's and see no reason I can't have some of those same luxuries in the woods. If I make it nice enough,maybe the wife will want to come more often! When I'm done,join me on the trail for a frozen Marguerita,some m-wave pizza and a movie!!

Mark

[Erik712m]

Mark, Looking back at the way I posted. I can see how you took offense to my post I really was talking about you in puticular but more or less the you can't have to many batteries statement. I notice a difference in the way my pinz handles fully loaded. ( roof top a/c, fridge, tv, and every other thing the kids and the wife think are must have ) Also how it sits even with heaver springs. I only have four batteries and will not add any more just have to draw a line some were. Now I do plan on adding a solar panel. Just going to take time. Finally getting the 2.7 upgrade after how many years of talking about it.

[karoja]

Hope this helps the issue, but I went with double banks of 24v, using the toolbox for the second bank. The front bank is the starter battery, the rear (toolbox) the house bank, both conected by a battery integrator. As soon as I draw from the house bank the integrator diconnects the house from the starter bank, and reconnects them once there is charge again.

I draw 12 and 110 volts out of the house battery. Here the gist on how to install the integrator, and why it is better than an isolator: http://www.jerrylabella.com/ship_shape2.htm

I personally do not like solar panels as I do a lot of jungle driving.

[M Wehrman]

Eric , No offense taken,we all do things differently and it's a good venue to "pick and choose" ideas!
Mark

[Skeej]

Hope this helps the issue, but I went with double banks of 24v, using the toolbox for the second bank. The front bank is the starter battery, the rear (toolbox) the house bank, both conected by a battery integrator. As soon as I draw from the house bank the integrator diconnects the house from the starter bank, and reconnects them once there is charge again.

I draw 12 and 110 volts out of the house battery. Here the gist on how to install the integrator, and why it is better than an isolator: http://www.jerrylabella.com/ship_shape2.htm

I personally do not like solar panels as I do a lot of jungle driving.

Thanks Karl, that was immensely helpfup- the redundancy and marine grade spec makes a lot of sense to me, and you provided the solution to my fear "what if I leave the switch set wrong".