EFI Kit Nearing Completion

[EvanH]

Temperature won't be an issue. This is because the cold start values are totally adjustable to -100F. Of course customers in this extreme cold will have to tune these parameters themselves, because the coldest I'lll be able to test the units is about 10F at best due to our climate... Thats why we are holding off on the sales of the systems until the dead of winter testing can be done.

Jake,

If you want to test under truly frigid conditions, I can give you my ex-wife's phone number...

-Evan

[Anthony]

ooch

Temperature won't be an issue. This is because the cold start values are totally adjustable to -100F. Of course customers in this extreme cold will have to tune these parameters themselves, because the coldest I'lll be able to test the units is about 10F at best due to our climate... Thats why we are holding off on the sales of the systems until the dead of winter testing can be done.

Jake,

If you want to test under truly frigid conditions, I can give you my ex-wife's phone number...

-Evan

[Mr. Magoo]

Sean and Jake,

I am very interested in your EFI conversion, but would like a little more info.

The modified intake manifolds and crank pulley come to mind. Can the intake manifolds still be used with the carbs with a plug of some kind replacing the injectors? And what is involved with the crank pulley mod? Can this be done at home with common tools or is machine shop service required? I would want to minimize the downtime needed for the conversion.

Finally, a few pictures of what the conversion would look like would be great.

Thanks for your time and effort to bring this to us.

[hrafn]

Jake and Sean,

I truly appreciate the effort that has gone into the development of your EFI
sytem, however I think that all of the questions posted to date need to be
answered. I, for one, would not hesitate to send in my $200 deposit if I had
just a little more information. What I would like to see is some specifications,
parts availability, photos, and maybe most importantly, the installation video.
I would even be willing to pay for the installation video as a separate item
just to see what is involved with the installation. I am sure that many
others would also agree.

There is also the issue of the cores for the intake runners and the crank
pulley. Since my truck is a daily driver, I just can't afford to take it off
the road for an extended period. Sending in the cores and waiting until
everything comes back is just not an option for me. Core charges for
those parts are an acceptable option.

One other thing I have not seen mentioned. I presume that the exhaust
headers will need to be modified for one or more oxygen sensors. If this
is the case then I would need to buy new exhaust headers to minimize
my downtime.

Jake, I can appreciate your frustration, but rather than getting pissed off,
you should try to provide the information mentioned above. If your EFI
system is as good as you say (and I have no doubt that it is), it will sell
itself once a few are installed. You will not gain new customers by being
pissed off because potential customers are not beating down your door.

Just my two cents worth.

[Jimm391730]

I've been running/using/testing my efi system, based on Bruce Beck's manifold and EMS computer. It was never expected to be an "out of the box" solution, but after a few months of tweaking (that I did myself, with feedback from the new wide-band O2 sensor) I'm VERY happy and encouraged with it.

With carbs (and California Air Resource Board approved emissions) it would spit nasty black stuff out the exhaust when started that coated whatever was beyond the tailpipe, and took 5-10 minutes of warmup before I could get it up my steep driveway and go someplace. Now, the exhaust is clean (allowing for the expected water dribbles) when I start it, and it takes only 20 seconds warmup to have plenty of torque to get going. My mileage is still about the same (not worse) but I've got more to do before I expect an improvement; I'm still running things rich to be conservative while I gain experience and gradually get it dialed in more precisely.

I took it on a 600 mile trip a few weeks ago and went from 1000' to over 8500' elevation with nary a hiccup, just the expected power loss from the elevation. My nine foot tall, 7,500 pound W box cruised at 68 mph (well, I have to credit the high-speed tranny for that, but that takes more torque with less gear reduction). In other words it was one of the best long trips I have made in my truck, and I've driven it over 25,000 miles and taken it from Vermont to California.

Now I have no information or experience with Jake's and Sean's system, so I can't talk to that, but EFI (when well designed and implemented) is definately the way to go! From what I can tell about their system, if you decided later to go back to carbs you could just plug the injector bosses in the manifolds and be back in business, so it's not a one way trip (I kept all my carb and distributor gear in case I decided to go back to carbs, but I never will!).

A true EFI convert,

Jim Mettler
Stock 710M, 712W with EFI, High Speed Tranny, Rebuilt 2.7l

[EvanH]

I have never met Jake, but I have seen a really cool video of him blowing up a VW engine. Very impressive and I'm sorry I wasn't there. I have visited his web site and based on that plus his participation in this forum I would not hesitate to plunk down the money for his EFI conversion.

Myself, I'm doing a conversion with a motorcycle manifold and MegaSquirt controller. I would never recommend this route unless you are a dedicated tinkerer and enjoy the knuckle-busting process of making your own. I'd be pleasantly shocked if my conversion works as well as Jakes. I'm sure he would be shocked too, just not as pleasantly! Looking at my labor from a dollars-per-hour standpoint, plus tools I have bought for the project, it is possible that his installation is less expensive than mine will be.

As for hard performance numbers - Jake and friends are not exactly General Motors (hopefully Jake turns a profit! ). There is no way he can put his reputation on the line and guarantee that all of your Pinz performance issues will go away if you convert to EFI. He has expressed frustration in the past that not all Pinz engines are created equal. He has probably spent more time than he cares to admit finding the best compromise for various engine configurations.

But, if you do some web research and read some books, you should come to understand that an EFI system (especially with an O2 sensor) gives you the best possible control over the air/fuel mixture over a wide variety of temperature, altitude, fuel quality and other factors. I think it is very safe to assume that if your Pinz is capable of passing emissions with carburetors, it will do even better with EFI. A carburetor is an amazing example of Rube Goldberg meets Murphy's Law. Listen to Jake when he says that if your truck has an emissions issue, and your engine is otherwise healthy, a quick tweak will get you through emissions with flying colors.

In other words, given that a stock Pinz engine is capable of passing emissions, and an EFI conversion can only improve the situation, I really think the fear of being worse off for the conversion is not a valid reason to shy away from the conversion.

An EFI conversion is not a small expenditure, no doubt about it. I would not be interested myself except that my carburetors are worn out, and my Pinz barely runs at off-idle and low RPM situation.

My 2 cents...

-Evan

[EuroPinz]

Well Sean,

From what I can read thru all these postings, and what I hear here in Europe, your EFI system setup is being closely monitored by a lot of Pinz owners around the world - however a big picture appears here:

It looks like we have 2 x 1 way lanes here. (1) One that is pushing for a sale and (2) one that is asking questions and somehow they don't seem to meet each other.

The question asked by Mr. Magoo (see here above) and the question asked by Jimm 391730 are quite normal questions to be asked and seem to remain unanswered. As long as we don't get these 2 main stream together, there will hardly anything happen. Our appetite for your system is proven by the tremenduous amount of question asked - so all we need to do is get along with each other and get this worked out.

No doubt that the carburator setup on a Pinz is ineficient and certainly will an EFI be one of the greatest improvement to be done on that vehicle however one constant is for sure here: an improvement will happen (with time) from where? Do NOT know: USA, Europe, Australia ...
Right now, your EFI system is the best setup (so far) known in this Community, but maybe in Europe a suitable Diesel engine will come out, and Diesel is much easier to find on treks thru Africa as opposed to gasoline, so here you stand to loose some potential customers. We are not sitting back and waiting for someone to be the first to install your system, but we have genuine questions, that deserve to be answered. I for my part would love to purchase your video first which of course a friend of mine will have to put on a CD in order for me to be able to watch it here in Europe.

Well enough of all that blablabla, I am a very serious and financially capable customer (even for $ 3,100), but I am not buying a cat in bag. I myself would love to have a few question answered, and I am not talking of emission regulation and foreign countries regulations, simple questions like Mr. Magoo and Jimm 391730 have asked.

Best Regards,

Jacques

[Profpinz]

While I applaud the R & D and product development work many Companies are doing to benefit the accessories and improvements available for Pinzgauer owners, not all contributors to this Forum are going to take advantage of such offers.
I, like a small number of other people on this and the Yahoo Forum take personal delight in developing our own products purely for our own vehicles.
I'm currently developing my own Pinzgauer fuel injection system (with input from an ex Bosch FI engineer) and I take great delight in designing and manufacturing the components and developing a system that I hope will look very much like the original / experimental SDP system.
My design is probably totally UN-VIABLE commercially (and besides I have no desire to make any more than ONE) given the time to make, cast and machine all the patterns and castings etc but for me it is a personal challenge.....sure there are failures, but that is part of the game as well.
As a guy once said: "it's not the destination that is important but how you got there"

I guess what I am saying is if you don't have the desire or inclination to design, develop and build your own system then a commercially available one, such as that we are talking about on this thread MAY BE the way to go, but for those "others", that challenge to make a better / slightly different mousetrap (read: FI system) is always there!

[MASSIVE PINZ]

OK, time for answers..

I'll start this off by saying that a do it yourself kind of guy, without a TON of support equipment and 10 years of experience with aftermarket EFI installs and tuning would have a near impossible time creating a set up as comprehensive as the offering I have been working with.

I jnkow that some people would rather build things themselves, rather than buy them, hell thats the inspiration that makes me develop these things and then sell them. The fact of the matter is that sometimes these huge desires to "do it yourself" cost MORE money and in this case leave you with a huge task and a lot of guesswork, trial and error. With enrichment being a huge part of an aircooled engine's life rich running can kill your rings and pistons and lean running can wipe out the entire top end of the engine, so guesswork can get nasty REALLY quick- especially without suport equipment to monitor things. Thats when doing something yourself becomes a haunted experience.

The modified intake manifolds and crank pulley come to mind. Can the intake manifolds still be used with the carbs with a plug of some kind replacing the injectors?

Yes- Or you could leave the injectors in place and just disconnect the wiring from them. This is what I have done each time I have went back to carbs for comparison with my Pinz engine. Leaving the injectors in place is the easiest way to go about this, or a blockoff could be made for the CNC injector bung that we weld into each manifold.

And what is involved with the crank pulley mod?

Using a Pinz specific template 3 holes are drilled into the existing crank pulley. These holes are drilled .120 into the crank pulley and we give you the drill bit sized for the job. A hand drill, or drill pres does the work just fine. The video covers this in depth.

I would want to minimize the downtime needed for the conversion.

Most installs would take a solid weekend to complete.

Finally, a few pictures of what the conversion would look like would be great

.
I'm sure they would and I'd love to show off my set up, but I can't until the 15 units are pre-sold. I'd hate for my pictures to become illustrations for others to copy my development work.
FYI_ Not even Sean has seen my arrangement.

I would even be willing to pay for the installation video as a separate item
just to see what is involved with the installation. I am sure that many
others would also agree

The video is another critical area and will only be sold with kits. The video would literally walk individuals through setting up not only my system, but would show them where to locate the components needed in the engine bay, wire them and would also show them the pertinent locations where I have positioned my components. That video would be sold for the same price as the complete kit as it would compromise my complete arrangement and I'm not too keen on that, if you spend hundreds of hours and about 4000 bucks in components you'd understand... That doesn't even cover the 30 hours of video it took and all of the editing to get that down to a 2 hour production.

Sending in the cores and waiting until
everything comes back is just not an option for me. Core charges for
those parts are an acceptable option

Sean has been looking for spare components that could be used as "core" items. In my current business I deal with a ton of cores as vintage Porsche parts are not exactly easy to find or cheap... I'll say that core charges are a nightmare to administrate and most of the time guys would rather pay the cores as sending in their parts. This creates an issue when we can't find enough of the core components to meet the demands for the systems.

I presume that the exhaust
headers will need to be modified for one or more oxygen sensors. If this
is the case then I would need to buy new exhaust headers to minimize
my downtime.

Thats really not cost effective at all.. In the kit I offer the bung that is welded into the exhaust and the video clearly illustrates where this needs to be positioned on the exhaust system for the best results. When the truck is back on the road after the rest oft he system is installed you can change one parameter in the programmer that disables the O2 sensor then drive the truck to a local welding shop, pay them 50 bucks and show them where the sensor bung needs to be installed. I did mine without removing the exhaust system at all..

Jake, I can appreciate your frustration, but rather than getting pissed off,
you should try to provide the information mentioned above.

I'm not getting pissed off.. I am getting frustrated but thats because its very hard to explain everything within the system in this format..

If your EFI
system is as good as you say (and I have no doubt that it is), it will sell
itself once a few are installed.

Well, those "few" will cost 2,950.00 at bare minimum unless I get the 15 orders that are needed to make a larger initial run. You guys won't spend that for the system more than likely, so we hit a brick wall and I end up with a kick ass system in my Pinz if nothing else.

You will not gain new customers by being
pissed off because potential customers are not beating down your door.

I have developed over 75 engine combinationsand 40 specific components to bring to various markets based on aircooled engines. I'll be the first one to tell you that my heart is in the function, practacality and correct operation of any thing that I develop. Due to this I believe that the things I have strived for in the development and the goals I have reached are all that are needed to sell that component. That would be the case if everyone thought like I did... I don't like to be copied at all, it happens all the time in my main business and I avoid allowing it to happen at all costs- I'd rather never sell a single unit as to have my ideas ripped off! Thats just me taking more pride in the work, than the money that it generates.

Myself, I'm doing a conversion with a motorcycle manifold and MegaSquirt controller. I would never recommend this route unless you are a dedicated tinkerer and enjoy the knuckle-busting process of making your own. I'd be pleasantly shocked if my conversion works as well as Jakes. I'm sure he would be shocked too, just not as pleasantly! Looking at my labor from a dollars-per-hour standpoint, plus tools I have bought for the project, it is possible that his installation is less expensive than mine will be.

Glad to see that you believe in what I do and thatyou realize that your way may not save you a single dollar... having gone through what it has taken to get my system to a point of satisfaction I'll say that you are correct. I lost track of hours spent at 175 and that was 3 months and two rounds of tests ago.

Well Sean,

From what I can read thru all these postings, and what I hear here in Europe, your EFI system setup is being closely monitored by a lot of Pinz owners around the world - however a big picture appears here:

It looks like we have 2 x 1 way lanes here. (1) One that is pushing for a sale and (2) one that is asking questions and somehow they don't seem to meet each other.

I'm trying to eliminate some of this with this detailed post by answering every question that I possibly can..

I'd like to clarify this:

(1) One that is pushing for a sale

Not true.. In my main business I have had this very thing happen to me with other developments in the past. Last year I had 55 takers on a "list" for new connecting rods I was making. I spent the money to have all the production work laid out, bought material and even some equipment to specifically finish these. When I was ready to go to the final level only THIRTEEN people sent their funds of the 55 that stated they would buy the components.

This post was a wake up call to those interested and it was also something that would tell me if I needed to take the development to a level that I don't need to for my own personal uses of the system. Since I don't travel above 4,000' and don't drive in temps lower than 25F I was going to have to go out of my way to not only drive to those climates but spend a significant amount of time setting up the system in those climates as well as gathering data logs from the engine while I am there. This is not easy work guys and it's damn sure not fun, it's also not a walk in the park to have to disconnect my data logging system from the dyno to install it in the Pinz to gather this information.

So basically what has come from this post is exactly what I wanted to see come from it. Its not the results that I wanted to see, but I'd much rather see this happening now than after I go driving through the Smokey Mountains in January to tune the systems and gather data- that would not make Jake a happy camper at all..

I for my part would love to purchase your video first which of course a friend of mine will have to put on a CD in order for me to be able to watch it here in Europe.

Nope- It's already in DVD format, throw it in a DVD player, or your computer and watch away.. But as stated above the video is just as much a part of the system as the modified ECU is, at least at this stage of the game. The video was created as an installation aid for the system and to help reduce questions and support after the sale. I am VERY busy and try to minimize questions as much as possible!

Well enough of all that blablabla, I am a very serious and financially capable customer (even for $ 3,100), but I am not buying a cat in bag.

Its about as far from a "Cat in a bag" as one could imagine. when i do something, I do it right or I don't do it at all. Thats why I have made this kit so easy to install and so complete.. Its also the reason why i have kept the engine in my Pinz 100% stock as a 2.5 so I could tune the ECUs for the systems as absolutely as possible. If it were not for all of this work the 3.3L engine would have been installed in June! Implications that I would even sell something like a "Cat in the bag" really bother me. Do some searches on me and you'll see why this is.

I guess what I am saying is if you don't have the desire or inclination to design, develop and build your own system then a commercially available one, such as that we are talking about on this thread MAY BE the way to go, but for those "others", that challenge to make a better mousetrap (read: FI system) is always there!

Its become pretty obvious from the emails and posts that I have seen thus far that the Pinz market isn't ready for a development like this in a production arrangement. With that being said we'll give this a little more time to pan out, but what I can see at the present is this:

Systems will be sold for the non production price and if the end user is in a super cold climate, or at high elevation they'll need to complete the tuning that I have not done thus far themselves. The end user doesn't end up with a system thats as tuned and is more expensive, but at least all of my work doesn't end up being put only into my truck.

Until we can do multiple systems (15-20) at one time without the horror of keeping them on the shelf for months or even years the price originally stated and the finish work that I intended to do isn't reality. The price that the non production Pinz EFI kit is being sold at is the same price I charge for my other EFI systems that don't have as many components and don't have a video...

I wish this would have went smoother, but I don't make mircles and the facst are that volume sets the prices... I would have believed from the input that i received initially that it would be NO SWEAT to sell 20 of these systems, so all the quotes I received for components were in batches of 20. I also priced out my labor on the modified parts based on setting up for a quantity of 20 as well.

Anyone that is still interested in the kits are the non production price should contact me directly.

[EvanH]

Jake,

I don't usually check the "classified" threads on the forum. The only reason I followed this one is that it was mentioned on the Yahoo forum.

Maybe if you add a cross-reference thread to the "technical" page more potential buyers will find out about it?

-Evan

[MASSIVE PINZ]

I was letting Sean do the posting of the kit because he'll be doing most of the sales..

I'd say he put it here because of the content not being "Technical"...

It would get more attention there.. It being posted there might not be appreciated by the Admin here though and we have to respect that..

[loyalp]

Well, honestly, you are just about to piss me off.

You tease us forever with little updates about the kit, and when several of us said, "Great! Here's my money,", you kept saying that it is way off in the future. Can't take your money now.

Then, all of a sudden, BAM! here's the kit! Come buy it now, or it goes away forever!

A lot of us have many things going on besides living and breathing our beloved Pinzies. My computer job went away and my household is on a very strict budget right now, my wife is ill, yadda, yadda, yadda.

Regardless, what marketing effort are you putting in to getting the 15 orders besides just a post on this forum? And, I hope it is more of an effort than just whining about not getting enough orders.

Even if I had the disposable income right now, the attitude I've seen on this issue has soured me on purchasing anything from anyone that seems so egocentric.

[MASSIVE PINZ]

Well, honestly, you are just about to piss me off.

You wanna talk about being pissed off?? try busting your ass for 11 months to bring something thats fully developed to the table only to have those waiting for it to not even return your phone calls... Thats pisses you off. Get me on the subkject of being pissed off about this project and I'm certain my post could be turned into a book.

You tease us forever with little updates about the kit, and when several of us said, "Great! Here's my money,", you kept saying that it is way off in the future. Can't take your money now.

Nope- thats 100% wrong. I said that I was WORKING on the kit and doing test work that took a long time to do and would require a change in climates to be completed. if you know of any way to to speed Mother Nature up let me know!

The last round of development I was able to get further than I had planned because of a lack of parts from one of my other engine projects that had the priority. This sped things up to the point where all I had to finish was the cold weatherand elevation testing and have the components made up to complete the kits as well as finishing up the video- thats why we had a February date for completion..

Then, all of a sudden, BAM! here's the kit! Come buy it now, or it goes away forever!

Show me one place where I stated that! What i stated was the fact that obviously the serious demand was not high enough for a production arrangement at the prices we stated from the beginning. I never said the kit won't be sold, just that it would be sold at the non production prices.

I will say that if enough jerks piss me off I will close the door on this development and walk away from it- period. I was trying to bring some well deserved components into the Pinz world but I won't starve if I never touch anther Pinzgauer development. I was doing this because I love the vehicles and knew I could do something to make them better and add another accomplishment unfder my belt- I refuse to be yelled at for trying to make a few parts!

A lot of us have many things going on besides living and breathing our beloved Pinzies. My computer job went away and my household is on a very strict budget right now, my wife is ill, yadda, yadda, yadda.

Well don't take your frustrations out on me and my development of this system! I understand that people have a hard time, try running your own business in today's economy and thats the definition of "hard time"... If people have a hard time thats understandable, but I expect them to at least return my calls and emails with an explanation of the situation.

While some people don't have to live and breathe their Pinz some of us put food on our tables from income generated by working with these vehicles and others owned by enthusiasts as well. Imagine how you would feel after several weeks of work and your boss cmae to yopu and said "Sorry, I have had a hard time and I can't pay you this week"... Well thats exactly what happens when customers don't keep their word with me, we depend on them and when they let us down well its not easy to stomach. This is multiplied by the amount of effort I have put into this endeavor.

Regardless, what marketing effort are you putting in to getting the 15 orders besides just a post on this forum? And, I hope it is more of an effort than just whining about not getting enough orders.

Perhaps since your computer job took a crap you'd be willing to spend some of your free time to spread the word about the system.. of course you'll not get a discount and won't be paid for this because everyone expects you to offer something for free these days and your time is worthless..

Fact is that I had many more people find out about the system via wod of mouth than anything else. Some of them emailed me and got on a mailing list for info about the system. All of those have been contacted, ONE out of 11 has replied to me with a deposit.

Perhaps you'd like to share other places where we can go to spread the word about this.. is their a publication somewhere that I am not aware of that Pinz specific?? Keep in mind that every bit of the expense we incur from the advertising and the effort that takes will go into the inflation of the kit's cost.. Of course you don't want that to happen, heaven help if it cost another 50 bucks!

Besides, there were more than 15 potential buyers of the system right here on this forum, hell thats why I based my first run on 20 systems from day one!

Even if I had the disposable income right now, the attitude I've seen on this issue has soured me on purchasing anything from anyone that seems so egocentric

I'm not going to kiss people's asses to sale something and I certainly do not like it when I'm lied to..

I am only this way when prompted by circumstances that deem it necessary. try being a vendor sometime, try writing your own paycheck- its not fun, especially when some prick enters the picture and makes a bad day worse.

Well, honestly, you are just about to piss me off.

You have pissed me off.

[VinceAtReal4x4s]

I couldn't be more in agreement with someone's comments that I am right now. Jake (and Sean) appear to have done something that may never be done again for this market. If people don't take advantage of it now, then it's their fault for letting emotions or unrealistic expectations rule over something that should be looked at as a purely technical or even financial based decision. I hope I don't get slammed for saying this but some people in highly technical/design fields often aren't salesmen, it's not their job. Their brains are too involved in applying the time to solutions for heavily detailed and frustrating problems. I've run into this over the last couple of years with extremely talented technicians in the film industry. I've learned to embrace the communication differences, trust that they know what they are doing and really respect a given talent that I don't have.

From similar experiences I know that nothing pisses off someone more than to have someone else try to copy them or find some cheaper (and 99% of the time, a less reliable way) of doing it. I've dealt with guys emailing me over the years, trying to subtly find out where I got a C303 from, etc. only to later realize they were trying to do it as a business like I was. That installation video should cost more than the kit, if sold alone, and of course be fully copyright protected.

If I still had one of my Pinzgauers, I'd be taking out space on my (or a gf's!) credit card without a doubt.

For the record, I have no way to make money off of this item. I am in no way associated. I just feel that frustration and really hope enough units get made!

[MASSIVE PINZ]

Vince,
I am glad to hear your position on the development. Since this is your turf it means a lot to me that you understand where I come from and concur with it.

If I was good with people or had a problem with telling the truth I'd more than likely be in politics, not working with 30+ year old engines, trying to kmake them modern...

Once again, your understanding of this situation is appreciated and if you fel that we over step our bounds here on the forum please let myself, or Sean know and we'll promptly square the situation away...

BTW- I had someone steal one of the designs for one of my cooling systems- that is a court battle thats been ongoing for two years now and shows no end in sight..

Guys: Thanks for the emails of encouragement that I received today- you're words me alot to me, sorry I won't be able to respond for a few days as I am totally slammed!