Ownership Experience

[75pinz]

I have had a lot of Pinzgauers over the past few years. Love them. However, I have wanted a Land Rover 109 for a long time and have never been able to put my hands on one. I know we are talking apples and oranges but if someone who has owned both could tell me what I can expect as far as reliability goes. Specifically, I am looking at a Series III Carawagon ex-MOD with no rust, supposedly in good order. Am I going to be screwing with it more than the Pinz? I can deal with it a little but don't want to babysit a headache. I might be spoiled by Pinz's and my M37 but I don't spend much time wrenching on them after I get them sorted out. As a matter of fact, I would consider my M37 to be more reliable than any Pinz I have had. Can I expect a Land Rover to do the same with some care?

[M Wehrman]

I may be talking out my a$$ here ,but old English electrics are a reliability nightmare . Then again my experiences were with Jaguars and not Land Rovers. I do like the LR's,just afraid Lucas may rear it's ugly head.....
I'm sure Dennis will chime in soon.....
Mark

[milesdzyn]

Lifes short....If you really love the vehicle, just buy it and live with the flaws.

Miles

[Anthony]

If you are really set on having an older Series Landrover then get it. It is true what is said about English Electrics of old but in fact the amount of electrics on these things is minimal and easy to fix. It is possible to get brand new wiring harnesses and components.

I had a Series III LWB a very long time ago and it was reliable except for the points, which is much the same for any vehicle with points no different. I would change this for an electronic unit such as 123 ignition or what ever is available over your side of the Pond.

The series vehicles use leaf springs, these can be a bit harsh and do not normally allow as much flex as the later Landrover Defender Coils. These can be changed cheaply for Parabolic Springs which will give a fantastic improovement in comfort and flex, very nearly as good as coils.

There are good links in the US for these vehicles but it is well worth you looking at the British scene where these vehicles originated from. GB has a massive support network for all Landrovers not least the old ones. I am sure that Denis is very familiar with them also.

Not really my cup of tea as I prefer the 90/110, the very latest versions of which use Ford TDi engines and main gearbox and are a much superior incarnation than its forebears.

[David Dunn]

Where is the LR? Still in the UK? Series 3 were made from '72 to '84, and I find it hard to believe that a ex-MoD LR is rust free ( very subjective, and you'd need to know where to look). only the skin is aluminum, the frame and firewall ( among other parts) are steel and prone to rust through., . Also, is it LHD or RHD? Unless it was assigned for NATO operation, it would be more than likely RHD, and the novelity would wear off soon. Also, is it a FFR ( Fitted For radio)? FFRs are 24v and those parts are becoming rarer, and more expensive.
As far as electrics, they are quite simple, and reliable ( if someone didn't think they know more and wire it differently). Biggest problem are poor quality of switches, a voltage stabilizer behind the dash that tends to go bad, and gives false gauge readings.

I had a NAS Series3 88 SW for 18 years, a very simple and easy vehicle to work on. I had a 101 GS and still have a 101 Vampire, the wiring on the ex-MoD trucks was in far worse condition from their exposure to the elements.... though the Vampire isn't bad since it was a better cared for and guarded.

IF you can inspect the 109, I'd go for it, but be warely of buying it sight unseen.

Dave Dunn

[mjnims]

If you get the rover and need some information you can contact Jim at Red Hawk Rovers. He has been a friend of mine for more years than I can remember. He can help you with some of the pitfalls of the LR's in general. His website is http://www.redhawkrovers.com/index.html
all contact info can be found there.
Good luck with what ever you decide on.

[krick3tt]

Now that I am in the Great Northwest I have discovered a group that was mostly Landie based but now all 4x4 vehicles. The group is Northwest Overland Society and I would be willing to bet that if you posted a question about a Landie on their site you could get some valuable information from the many LR owners. Just a thought.

Morris,
710M

'I have seen the future and it is the same as the present, only longer.' (anon)

[lindenengineering]

Oow Landrovers gotta chime in.
Actually Anthony and David have just about covered it all on buying one.

My only advise is to evaluate the vehicle well before buying, Unfortuntely there can be alot of botched up crap out there. When it come to the Lucas stuff the biggest problem with their systems are poor ground connections and continuity problems caused by the ingress of moisture into connections causing high resistances. I see one contributer to his thread has or owns a Jag, the 88 & 89 years have to be the worst, I own an 88 XJ6.

By the way you shouldn't be too critical of Lucas Industries, they are the masters of buy and merge, Ford have tried it and failed. Lucas is I believe something like the 53rd best earning UK company, its Aerospace division is highly profitable. It's still a family business by the way.
As a potted history I studied this company as an MV student.

They were around in the late 19th century making cheap piss pots and sideboard mounted commodes for the masses. The type of stuff you saw in cowboy movies. Their lucky break came in the 1905 road safety acts that saw the universal and mandatory introduction of lighting to all UK MV's.

They simply put a carbide lamp in a piss pot and mounted it on a mast. The US is not the only country to have industrial visonaries by the way!

Having a virtual monopoly, just about everything that had wheels had a Lucas product on it. I always admired as a kid, AC Delco products on Vauxhall and Bedford products but this was the only UK produced vehicles that had something from the competition. I later found out that Lucas paid AC Delco something in the order of 30,000 quid a year to stay out of the UK. No mean payoff in the 1930's.
What you will find out is that they simply bought out the competiton, rebadged it and moved on, Scintiila magnetos, CAV, Simms diesel/electrical, Paris Rhone, oh the list goes on. They even struck a deal for exclusive rights to Bosch diesel products from the Nazi Gov in 1936. no mean feat by the way.

Come the end of the war just about everything was Lucas powered, only when the Japanese started heavy imports into the UK did they see their market share drop. From that point on they simply marketed Asian products and rebadged their stuff as their own! Yuasa batteries, Hitachi engine management systems, Sagem, oh well they they simply did what they were good at. And today they are thriving. Not like alot of those in the MV industry I might add.
It goes to show that when you have no competiton the quality does tend to fall off. Equally if you are savvy you can preserve market share by being---well savvy.
Bye Bye
Dennis

[justfred]

The first Land Rover I bought started with a stuck choke, and wouldn't get higher than 2nd gear; I drove it across the urban jungle of Los Angeles (Venice to Claremont, on surface streets) at 15-35 miles an hour, having to push start it every few blocks. But, it made it. I then rebuilt the transmission and transfer case, on my dorm room floor, by myself, having never done anything more detailed than a carburettor rebuild before. Must have gotten something wrong because I had to get a "pro" one a few months later, but that lasted the rest of the vehicle's life.

Land Rover parts cost a lot less, and seem to be easier to get.

I never had a single problem that I could blame on Lucas. I had fuel problems and carb problems and major transmission problems and minor radiator problems; once they'd been fixed I never had the problem again. Electrical looms aren't that expensive, but replacing the whole loom is pretty detailed work.

One of my Rovers had a Chevy 6 and Chevy electronic ignition and electric fan. Most unreliable motor system of the whole bunch (tho I also drove it LA-Denver several times with no issues). I'd stick with the 4-banger. Most Dormobiles I've seen had the Rover 6, which I've heard was problematic - don't think the Carawagons had them. Ex-MOD may have 24 volt electrical, which you're used to.

I had a right-hand drive 1963 IIA 109 that had started life in South Africa and been shipped through Costa Rica, and had some sort of green goo sealing a crack in the block. Drove it round trip LA-Los Cabos, 1/3 off road, no problems (except the battery bouncing out of the bracket into the fan; and not having a big enough gas tank).

I prefer Series IIA over Series III. Metal dash, simpler systems, mainly.

Rovers leak a lot more than Pinz's - the trans boxes have square gaskets that tend to seep. If it doesn't leak, it's empty. I predict that you will end up "screwing with it more" because I rarely have to screw with the Pinz at all, it just runs.

I did one ground-up restoration (of the first one I owned/mentioned) and got to be good friends with the staff at British Pacific (the gang is gone now, and the old shop is a snooty restaurant in old Pasadena now, owned by Kevin Costner, they say; BP is still a good source if you're on the left coast.). It was pretty fun to restore because all the parts come apart pretty easily; it was expensive to put on new parts but satisfying to have the sheet metal walnut-blasted at an aircraft place and the body cappings regalvanized. The hardest part to find was the front grille, which was a US only model. I finally found one in Bath, England ("Hi, I'm restoring a rover. Do you have one of these?" "Dunno, check that pile in the back."). Biggest problem with the restoration was that it came out too nice, I didn't want to take it out and beat the hell out of it anymore, so I sold it.

Check the frame, bulkhead for rust, that's mainly where it will happen, most of the rest of the body is "Birmabright" aluminum alloy so no problem. New frames are obtainable.

And all in all my experience was about on par with the Pinzgauer - that is, I basically never had to do anything except take them to the shop now and then for regular checkups and/or major refits.

Good luck, let us know how it goes.