EFI tech stuff

[NM_Mogman]

I have been off the board for a while now so I am a little out of the loop. What EFI systems are there on the market and how much do they run? How "bolt-on" are they? What sort of MPG increase is everyone seeing in general? Thanks.

Phil

[pinztrek]

If any one say's there is no noticeable difference between carbs and EFI. I say they are full of sh!#.

That's the truth, on the pinz efi system I'm involved in there is an incredible difference:

- Significantly increased low end torque, slight increase in higher end performance
- Immediate throttle response, with no bogs, spits, or backfires even when rolling on the throttle at very low RPM under heavy load (think crossing boulders in 4wd)
- Fully temp compensated cold/hot starts, including computer controlled fast idle
- Closed loop idle control, same idle hot/cold, high/low. Killer when offroad, very hard to stall now as the computer maintains idle. I call it offroad cruise control
- distributorless ignition with off the shelf coil/wire/controller availability. No expensive/fragile MSD/Accel modules, tried and true OEM tech.
- Ignition advance fully computer controlled with limphome mode needed
- Port injection shooting at the intake like modern OEM cars
- Load/rpm dependent closed loop setpoints. Works fine with inexpensive narrow band ($19) O2 sensors. Can use wide band, but not needed
- No modifications required to existing wiring harness, no wiring forward of engine. Complete wiring harness supplied which is plug & play
- compact (think paperback sized) controller in weather resistant case with sealed automotive grade connector. Customized to deal with pinz 24v systems & mount out of the way using existing holes in cab.
- It's designed as a turn key kit which could be installed by anyone with basic mechanical skills. (Does require exchange of intake & crank pully)
- Utilizes factor air cleaner if desired
- 2.7 & stock 2.5 config on the road now for a year or more

And need I say it.... no gas smell in the cab!!! Huge difference!

We also joke that it's like having an automatic.... Once rolling shifting is much less frequent, and even then it's usually just between 4th & 5th.

I'm seeing 65 easy on stock tires with bone stock 2.5l engine. With my taller 16x34 swampers 70 is not a strain.

So yes, efi is worth it!

Before anyone asks, we've not decided if our system will be offered to individual users or just military/commercial customers. Herbert is handling that end of things.

Have fun,

Alan

[NM_Mogman]

Alan,
That is some good info and I appreciate you posting it! My wife and I are trying to make our 710m more effecient and nicer to drive and EFI and maybe the 2.7l upgrade so far seem like the way we want to go. I hate the gas smell in the cab (even after carb rebuild and sync!) and I hate wasting gas by holding the accelerator pedal lower and longer than should be needed trying to maintain speed or pulling up hill or with a light loaded trailer! A plug and play EFI would be awesome. We love the truck but would enjoy it so much more if we could use it more and have a little more power and economy. Your system sounds great and I for one would be interested in purchasing one if the price was reasonable.

[Heed]

I agree with NM_Mogman. I would like to make the jump to EFI soon for the above-noted reasons that Pinztrek indicated. I was not able to get in on the Air-cooled Technology purchase as I had just bought the truck, however I would be interested in Pinztrek's or Jim LaGuardia's system if it was "plug and play"

[ka]

efi sounds wondeful!

but in summation, what's the diff between jake's, jim's and alan's efi?

also, is jim's the only one available?

and what's the cost of jim's?

[Jim LaGuardia]

The system Alan is discussing uses a modified version of a Steve Draggus manifold(the type used on older Red Bull trucks), two versions were made, one with the injectors in the intake manifold runners(resulting in melted injectors) and the other just dumped the fuel inside the plenum cavity resulting in unstable idle. Jake also tried this manifold and found it to be flawed.
Whatever claims are made, always verify what you are getting before you put your money down.
Jake has only made 16 systems(none delivered to date), and stated he will not make more. My Beck injection has been running for a few years now and although it is just a hardware kit, it is well designed and tested and compatible with any injection computer, even Mega Squirt.
I can make as many as needed . All the trucks running this system start every time, and when in sequential injection configuration (EMS 8860)milage is very good.
Talk is cheap, pictures speak volumes, beware of those selling mod parts that don't allow you to see images of the products.
To answer your question, the hardware component kit I offer is $1400.
You also get a list of common easy to obtain parts. Using wrecking yard parts You can get everything including fuel pump, injectors, sensors, connectors and throttle body for less than $250, and then use computer of your choice.

[ka]

jim - yours sounds gr8! if i showed up at your door what would it cost for the complete job out-the-door? you're not too far from my old home town (a place i wouldn't mind visiting along the way).

oh.. and how long would it take?

[andy]

+1 on ka's ?

Andy

[Heed]

Thanks for the info Jim! It's good to have a ballpark figure so that I know how much to set aside (allowing for exchange ). I was hesitant before just because I am not familiar with what was involved in the changeover. I worried that the job would be above my basic mechanical skills!

[pinztrek]

The system Alan is discussing uses a modified version of a Steve Draggus manifold(the type used on older Red Bull trucks), two versions were made, one with the injectors in the intake manifold runners(resulting in melted injectors) and the other just dumped the fuel inside the plenum cavity resulting in unstable idle. Jake also tried this manifold and found it to be flawed.

Hmm, given you have not seen, touched, driven, or otherwise communicated with myself or Herbert about our system you are making some fairly mis-informed statements. Actually, some outright false statements.

I've not made any negative comments about other systems, and I'm disappointed to see you head that direction.

Some facts:

- experience with plenums with the injectors shooting into the top of the runners results in uneven airflow/mixure. I suspect some pinz EFI systems are seeing this effect as well based on comments about "needing 58% trim on individual injectors". So we did not go that path, and neither has most modern oem's or most of the wide aftermarket EFI crowd

- Whatever testing Jake did with his various plenums has nothing to do with what we've done. I suspect most of the problems he saw early on were due to uneven fuel flow to injectors, etc, but that's conjecture on my part. I don't comment on systems I've not had hands on. My impression is that Jake did solve the fuel flow problem. HK felt strongly we should use the tried & true bosch aproach as used on millions of L-jet and later. And as used on the factory pinz FI. I concurred, it works great. We see zero airflow, fuel flow, whatever issues. No injector trim needed, etc. Just widely available OEM fuel regulator & plumbing with OEM level engineering.

- Plenum shape has minimal effect on pinz performance as long as you do not have unequal airflow. What matters is the volume. The pinz is not a high volume, high rpm engine where intake runner/plenum dynamics come into play. The valve & intake port are really the constraining factors.

- Given the pinz has a constrained engine housing shape, there are only so many shapes that will fit cleanly and have the correct volume. The plenum on my pinz is not a "Dragus" plenum, though the Dragus plenum works fine when properly setup with injectors positioned correctly in the runners. HK's daily driver does use a modified dragus manifold, and I'd put it against any pinz around from a performance perspective. So your comment about "Draggus" manifold performance is at best mis-informed as I can state as fact that you have not seen or driven our system. Any info you have is 3rd hand or based on someone else's EFI system.

- Anyone who has burnt injectors for a conventional injector in the runner clearly hae controller/programming problems combined with a valve issue. Done properly, it's simply the best way to maintain equal airflow/mixture across cylinders. Which is why every current oem vehicle uses that approach. Stop and think about what would have to happen to have burnt injectors in the intake runner!

Whatever claims are made, always verify what you are getting before you put your money down.

and

Talk is cheap, pictures speak volumes, beware of those selling mod parts that don't allow you to see images of the products.

Jim, I'm afraid you lost quite a bit of credibility making negative and false comments about a system you have not seen, touched, driven, or probably even seen any facts about. I don't understand the motivation, unless you have a bunch of unsold plenums to peddle.

And to be clear:

A) I'm not peddling a system, kit, whatever. This started as a "what's happening in pinz efi" discussion. I assumed it was OK to talk about systems other than yours.

B) The HK system was designed for Commercial/Military customers who demand OEM level design & engineering with bolt-on, turnkey operation. We, nor our customers would accept anything less. No fiddling, no home-made harnesses with splices, etc. That's not for everyone, but done properly is is not more expensive than cobbling one together yourself.

This means:

• * Plug & play OEM level wiring harness
  * Purpose built pinz controller pre-configured for 2.5 or 2.7l engines, no programming/tuning required
  * Exchange on key mechanical parts, no machining required
  * All required OEM parts pre-sourced as needed. No junkyard chasing
  * All systems burned in on test engine (at least for mil/commercial customers, tbd for others)

So it depends on what you want. If you want to fiddle,machine, tune, tinker and splice, it may not be for you. If you want (or demand) a bolt on, turnkey, repairable system, then talk to Herbert, Jason, or myself down the road.

C) Who said anything about money????? I sure did not, mine was a technical discussion, and made it clear that HK's kit may not even be available to individuals. If it is offered to individuals, you'll have a unit Herbert is willing to put his name one. It will be sold by him, not as parts on ebay.

As an FYI, you do not have an exclusive on pinz efi.... Ron Schroder has had an EFI pinz on the road as daily driver since about '01. I've been playing with EFI on the pinz since about that same time, Herbert longer than that if you factor in the k-jet factory systems and certain pinz/hafflinger installs in the past which can't be discussed in detail.

So please keep the sales & smear campaign out of Pinzgauer Technical. I have chosen not to repeat comments I've heard regarding yours or other systems, even when from someone who has driven both yours and ours. I'd ask you to do the same.

The pinz community is a small one, and we should be able to discuss this type of things without the disparaging comments like you have directed toward anyone with an alternative. (Jake in the past, and now Herbert & myself)

Can we get back to tech talk?

Sincerely,

Alan

[Jim LaGuardia]

Beg pardon if I erred,I have made my comments based on your you tube postings. All I saw was the version using the Draggus type manifold, and I had plenty experience with those units, they were all (8 Red Bull trucks)running on a Motec M4 unit.
So if you have a newer design that is great. I'm not slamming or into a pissing contest, just discussing options and observations. I seem to remember sharing some crucial information with Herbert and his son on this very subject several months ago, so why would I slam?
Any EFI system is an improvement, hence the point of this thread.
It does however make a difference if you are batch or sequential controlled.
What controller and injectors are you using ? Is it wasted spark or sequential? Open or closed loop control?
So don't take it so personal in a technical discussion forum, it is supposed to be for sharing info and comparing options.
Now, my tech questions for you, did you make a trigger wheel for the crank pulley, or use a modified distributor with a Hall effect switch?
Have you posted new images or videos lately? I would love to see them.
By the way, anyone can download the software for the EMS computers that I have used for free at http://www.enginemanagementsystem.com/8 ... taller.exe

[pinztrek]

Beg pardon if I erred,I have made my comments based on your you tube postings. All I saw was the version using the Draggus type manifold, and I had plenty experience with those units, they were all (8 Red Bull trucks)running on a Motec M4 unit.

So based on one grainy video you make a complete dismissal, spoken authoratively. Followed up by a stern warning not to believe all you hear.

All because you saw a plenum which looked familiar on youtube????

And even that judgement was based on someone else's implementation years ago using a different controller, injector approach, pretty much a completely different system. With zero first hand information?

So if you have a newer design that is great. I'm not slamming or into a pissing contest, just discussing options and observations.

OK, I guess we have different definitions of civil discussion. Sure came across as "my system is the only one any one should consider, be careful where you spend your money". And I know I'm not alone in that perception, based on comments already received from others.

Again, all based on your interpretation of one grainy video......

I seem to remember sharing some crucial information with Herbert and his son on this very subject several months ago, so why would I slam?

I can state as fact that there is absolutely zero goatwerks engineering, parts, ideas, concepts in our system.

Herbert and I started our EFI collaboration in 2002, and our original design concept & approach remained pretty much unchanged. We both back burnered it due to other priorities. Jason became involved in 2007 and contributed in many areas.

It does however make a difference if you are batch or sequential controlled.

Well, not much at all in a properly designed system when used on vehicles like the pinz. Sequential advantages really only comes into play for tuned port type intakes with exact valve timing, o2 sensor per cylinder, etc. Given the pinz's low rpm torque peak, and minimal room for runners, tuned port offers little advantage. (a tuned runner for a pinz would be about 4' long!)

Likewise, the only other advantage of sequential is to reduce "wet runner" issues when injecting several inch's from the valve. Inject a foot or more away like on the pinz carb flange & you see many more problems in general, from unequal mixture, icing, etc. When you inject near the intake port like ours (and OEM's), wet runner related issues are eliminated. Yes, it requires swapping intake manifolds to install. But it's worth doing.

There are many, many OEM cars & even race cars using what you call batch, which is really "Bank" injection. And there are multiple variants of bank injection, with single, double, quadruple shot's per rev, 1-4 banks, etc.

But the fact remains, the primary move to sequential (and later port injection) for oem's was tightened emissions restrictions which impacted most V-8's due to long/convoluted runners. Bout the time that OBD-1.5 & II came out. Example: Corvette LT-1's made the same power with bank injection as the later sequential injection on the same engine. They switched to sequential in 94, surprise... the same year OBD surfaced.

We've hashed this out before..... sequential is mostly marketing hype for people wanting to sell expensive EFI controllers and an emissions thing for OEM's. If someone is seeing significant differences bank VS sequential on a pinz it's probably due to unequal mixture/airflow in their plumbing. IE: the main thing sequential is doing is replacing injector trim in dealing with the unequal mixture across cylinders

What controller and injectors are you using ? Is it wasted spark or sequential? Open or closed loop control?

Already addressed these in my first post. Are you going to claim some advantage in sequential spark as well? The only reason OEM's moved from wasted spark to sequential with COP (Coil on plug) is to save money/complexity on high voltage wiring. Zero performance advantage.

Our controller is purpose built for the pinz and only requires 2 connections to the factory pinz harness at existing connection points. None forward of the rear cab/engine. (I'm an old embedded controller design & programming guy, doing it for over 28 years. Some of my work flew in avionics bays on Gulfstream biz jets)

Now, my tech questions for you, did you make a trigger wheel for the crank pulley, or use a modified distributor with a Hall effect switch?

Already addressed this as well..... how many oem systems are using modified distributors? You know Herbert, what do you think he would accept? Trigger wheel on the crank, of course. Nothing exotic, just well engineered and utilizing tired and proven OEM ignition components. That you could buy in pretty much any country in the world, which is important to our customers. All with Automotive OEM connectors, weatherproof, etc. With full load/rpm based ignition control, yet with limp home capability as needed.

Have you posted new images or videos lately? I would love to see them.

No, for a variety of reasons. There are a couple of video's we posted for fun. Since the system is not being marketed to individual users, there has been no need to create marketing. If you know anything about Herbert's typical customers you'll know why we don't and in some cases, can't share more.

The system itself is remarkably sparse..... a small weatherproof controller box, the size of a paperback. An integrated wiring harness made of automotive grade wire, wrapped OEM style with all connections the correct length for their components & terminated in OEM weatherproof connectors. OEM sensors are used. Once the mechanical parts, sensors, and controller are mounted you literally take the harness out of the box & plug it in. One wire is connected in the battery box.

The ignition system looks like any you would see on a small 4 cylinder from a major mfg with two wires going to the controller.

The plenum & throttle body attach to the factory air cleaner with a Steyr rubber boot. Throttle cable attaches to the factory throttle linkage, no fab required.

In all aspects, it looks & is engineered like a factory design. Which should not be any surprise if you know Herbert's SDP factory background and typical customer base.

Several folks have driven Herbert's pinz. We'll try to make a couple of treffens. Fla is most likely. We started to come to the Colorado treffen, but my work schedule made it unworkable this year.

Have fun,

Alan

[EvanH]

I am pretty excited about this tread. I have a kit of parts put together for a system using four invidual thottle bodies from a motorcycle application, and a Ford EDIS wasted spark setup for spark management.

MegaSquirt is the controller of choice for me.

I waffled about buying Jim's premade system to reduce much of the learning curve, vs. continuining with my project for the full, glorious experience.

I have a good load of general EFI and spark data in my head, but I am still vague on much of the Pinz specific issues. One thing I was planning to do that nobody else appears to have done is to fabricate custom runner rather than use the OEM runners.

So with more information posted about design sucesses and failures, the more we with EFI interests can understand what we build for ourselves, and those buying turnkey systems will be able to share with the poor, podunk mechanic charged with the task of fixing it.

Or should I just plan to not to participate in technical discourse while drinking?

-Evan

[ka]

Or should I just plan to not to participate in technical discourse while drinking? -Evan

HAHAHAHA... no man, that was gr8. gr8 points, too. tonight has been an awesome read for me here on the list. and the fact that it's totally still legal to drink and type is cause for celebration.

sure hope this all soonly results in my having an efi'd pinz - that's all i'm say'n...

<i think i deserve another beer for all the reading i've done tonight.>

[Erik712m]

So based on one grainy video you make a complete dismissal, spoken authoratively. Followed up by a stern warning not to believe all you hear.

All because you saw a plenum which looked familiar on youtube????

And even that judgement was based on someone else's implementation years ago using a different controller, injector approach, pretty much a completely different system. With zero first hand information?

First off I have been up driving a car for the last twenty-four hours with screaming kids in the back ground. So no one give me crap if I forget to punctuate.

Alan, Hi that is all we have to go on as you guy's never post. As I'm one of three pinz owners in my area, second hand is all I get. From the rumor mill north of you I hear Herbert was having problem's with his controller? False?

I had heard Jim's Efi systems had its problem's but from what I experienced. It ran rather nicely. Although I agree it would be nice if it came complete bolt on ready to go.