Window Frame Removal Alterations

todds112 · Post by **todds112** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 2:49 am

Let me bounce an idea off you guys. Read the article on SDP-Pinzgauer site about mounting the door handles to the window frame only so it's 2 less screws to remove to take off window frames.

My idea is this: why not cut out a notch in the bottom of the upper frame around the feet of the handle so it simply stays attached to the door, with the upper frame on or off.

I would also like to replace the nuts holding the frames on with wing nuts or knurled threaded knobs and maybe add a third one with a nutsert right in the middle of the door handle just for stability?

Anyone know why this woudn't work

Jim LaGuardia · Post by **Jim LaGuardia** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 3:42 am

Cutting the frames weakens them, just screw the handles to the top half, as for the knobs, they may work.

mjnims · Post by **mjnims** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 5:25 am

Have heard all the garbage about "cutting the door tops weakens them" and have had my tops cut for over three years now with no ill effects. I drive my pinz as much or more than most, 75K kilometers in the three years with a bunch more miles of it towed on a trailer well above 70 mph.
I for one enjoy having the handles on the doors when the tops are off, which is most of the time.

There is minimal clearance on the bolt heads but it you could find a bolt with a small enough head it should work. I know that many of the people that remove their door tops regularly don't even bother putting the bolts in. They just let the doors rattle a little, too much for me.

PinzEOD · Post by **PinzEOD** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 8:37 am

I also frequently take the door tops off, though most of the time when it's nice enough for that, I find it easier to take the entire door off (pop the hinge pins and release the limiter). It's never been a speed issue for me. The 'inconvenience' of the handle screws and the two end bolts has never been an issue either. I keep a #2 crosstip in the glove box at all times, along with a compact set of metrics from Target.

Perhaps a Spade Head Thumb Screw would allow sufficient clearance to be a bolt replacement. I don't use the handles at all on the lower doors themselves.

Jim LaGuardia · Post by **Jim LaGuardia** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 4:48 pm

Why hack the frame(no offence intended) when it is easier to spend around $2 for 8 t-nuts and screws?
Either way you have to remove the handles at least once

mjnims · Post by **mjnims** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 5:29 pm

Jim, I don't think many people are out to offend people just express their opinions. Like our trucks they are all a little different. What I have found is that most have really strong opinions about some topics and won't consider options. Many items about the Pinzgauers I have heard spread as gospell have just not been true, just repeated so many times people have taken them as truths. A good example is the side rails. When I first got my truck I was told that metal was not an option. The wood was needed for the forgiveness. I have had metal side rails on my truck for some time now and have used them more than most people have used their wood. I have even been hit by a full size truck and all it did was cave in his tailgate and scratch the paint on my rails.

I like the handles on the doors when the tops are off. I took my plasma cutter and followed the outline of the handle so that no excess material was removed. The handles are sure convienent with the tops off.

todds112 · Post by **todds112** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 8:32 pm

Thanks for the opinions. I guess first thing is to get them frames off and take a look at them then decide what I want to do. Remember I'm coming from the Jeep world where everything is engineered for convenience.

As for weakening the frame that's why I was thinking of adding the third bolt/nutsert in the middle. Might be nice to leave the handle on. My shrimpy girlfriend needs all the help she can getting in the darn thing.

milesdzyn · Post by **milesdzyn** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 2:42 am

An option I've been contemplating would move the handle from the top to the inside panel, since the door panel could be easily replaced if one should change there minds or sell the vehical. It would not have to be removed to take off the top half of the door and would be in the same relative position for ease of reach. Just another option and I have not tried this yet so make sure there is no interferance when the door is closed like the dash?

Also has anyone tried mounting any pouches to the inner door for storage of light items? Bungee nets?

Miles

PinzEOD · Post by **PinzEOD** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 10:20 am

milesdzyn wrote:An option I've been contemplating would move the handle from the top to the inside panel<snip>

Cool idea Miles. I'm pretty sure the thickness of the aluminum panel I used as a replacement would hold up to that sort of use. A few rivnuts in the door panel is all it would take.

pinzwheeling · Post by **pinzwheeling** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 10:40 am

I have my handles mounted with T-nuts and stainless screws like Jim had recommended. I don't have any hardware holding my door tops in. They are heavy enought that they stay in place, and there is absolutely no ratling. I don't have metal door panels anymore, so mounting the handle there wasn't an option.

Jimm391730 · Post by **Jimm391730** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 11:37 am

I, too, have my handles mounted to the door tops with tee nuts and also never bolt the door tops on; they don't rattle at all, but I did put a strip of camper foam tape under the door top to protect the door from getting scratched by the tee nuts. Once the top is off, the door itself is easy to grab (I think it is easier than the much smaller handle). Plus, the handles are not in the way with the tops removed -- you have a nice, smooth surface to place your arm on, and one less thing to bang against on the rough trails.

Jim M.

David Dunn · Post by **David Dunn** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 1:07 pm

OK now, I like to clear up something, and a little history to the "gospell" garbage.
A long time ago (when I had gas Pinzes), and Pinzes were few in the US, cutting the folded metal around the handle was done and suggested to the group. This wasn't careful cutting around the footprint of the door handles, but removing all the material from one side of the handle to the other and most all of the material up to where the material folds back up the door. It weaken the rigidity of the door top by removing a section of the fold. You ask why and how? The 710/12 door tops are not extremely strong in the first place, they are held into place on the door by 2 rods welded to folded sheet metal and with years of opening and slamming the doors shut, they tend to tear at the lower front and rear corners and begin to flop around instead of being a rigid structure ( check your doors for small tears or where they may have been rewelded, if not you may be a lucky one or had new door tops installed at one time

). Cutting the fold out is not a good idea as over time that area of the door could start to tear, especially if you continously R&R top tops (ex.. twisting the tops to alignning the rods with the holes, rough handling...).

Back in '01 or '02 I presented the option to T nut the door handles to the door tops so that they came off with the top ( once the tops are off, the whole top rail of the door is a handle ). The handle is only needed to close the door when the door top is in place, and the window is closed. For those that use it for a lifting point to get in, some 716/18s had handles mounted to the pillars of the windshield ( I added them to the Pink Cow, the mounting holes were already there). Another problem that many have had are that the bolts retaining the handles are frozen in place and need to be drilled out, if lucky the thread aren't destroyed in the attempt.

But before becoming a heretic, you should see what all the reasons were for a comment in the first place. Not all probable problems may be apparent.

SDP changed the doors completely in the 716/18 to correct many problems in the older models, yet as far I can see, they're the same shape and dimensions.

Also, with the door tops in place, use the mounting bolts to hold them firmly in place. There will be some movement in the top that will be exaggerated by the slamming of the door.

David Dunn

btw, I hate writing posts longer than 3 fingers wide... or reading them

mjnims · Post by **mjnims** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 7:11 pm

Dave
I suppose if you were not careful when cutting you could do some damage but that would not be a direct result of the cutting but rather operator error which can occur on anything. I have seen many pinz with the doors cut and have not seen any difference in the door tops. If you have a picture of such damage I sure would love to see it.
The wife likes the door handle to hold onto when we are doing some extreme wheeling. I also have a piece of wood made up to fit one of the gun racks for her to hang onto as it puts the wrist in a more nuetral position and makes it more comfortable. The grab bar is too far forward for both hands and much too small in diameter to grab comfortably.
A lot of things have changed in the community since '01 - '02. Why you can even get a couple of styles of Aluminum rims and widened steel rims which were thought to be unobtainable back then.
love the improvements and hopefully they will keep coming.

David Dunn · Post by **David Dunn** » Sun Apr 01, 2007 11:57 am

Mike
It is not being careful as much as how you make a cut. Any sheetmetal that is subject to any stress, movement, twisting or expansion, it is important to make radius inside notches rather than sharp angular ones. It is from those inside points that stress fractures begin.As far as giving a time frame for a failure, you may be better entertain watching grass grow. Nothing apocalyptic. A weaken point is exactly that, a weak point, conditions decide when and if a failure occurs.

Making conditions in your Pinz useful and safe is important. The original suggestion of using T nuts was for those that want a way to secure the handles to the door tops without having to do any modifications to anything...nothing more and a personal choice of those that wanted to do it. For those that are not familar with this T nut addition, there are photos in the photo section of the Yahoo Pinzgauer group in the folder 'DSD277'. I thought it was on the SDP-P site too, but couldn't find it.

mjnims wrote:Dave

A lot of things have changed in the community since '01 - '02. Why you can even get a couple of styles of Aluminum rims and widened steel rims which were thought to be unobtainable back then.
love the improvements and hopefully they will keep coming.

I'm not sure what that means... my reference to back then is when the statement was made. Back in '01 , Ron S.had already made his own EFI and had widen rims. This was a message board... it was early in '04 when it crashed for the last time and this forum began.... for the first time.
In '02, the only thing that I thought was unobtainable was a 716, everything else just cost money

todds112 · Post by **todds112** » Sun Apr 01, 2007 6:39 pm

I do like the idea of mounting them to the inside of the door panels. The nice new aluminum ones I have. They are currently taunting me to install them sitting next to my desk. Could even mount a straight piece of heavier aluminum stock behind as a brace. Hmmmm.