Latest Ken Burns documentary. About WWII. Wish it wasn't so long. Hard not to miss one of the seven episodes.
I am fascinated by WWII. I have so much respect for everyone from that generation, especially the vets.
I wish we still had that same patriotism, dedication, and selflessness. That simple lifestyle, the wonderful lack of technology, and the perceived need to keep up with the Jones'. I am sure I have an overly romantic view of that time, but I can't get enough of the stories from that era.
God bless our vets (ALL of them) and those who lived through this time.
"The War" starts tonight on PBS
"The War" starts tonight on PBS
1973 712M
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VinceAtReal4x4s
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I'm with you on that. I just finished watching the first episode and will likely own the DVD set later.
I wasn't alive then or even for Vietnam for that matter, but the same possibilities are set deep within many of a generation that you'd never suspect. Can't say that I'm sure about the emerging one though; kids are now being conditioned, in general, to be pussies in my opinion... to put it simply.
I wasn't alive then or even for Vietnam for that matter, but the same possibilities are set deep within many of a generation that you'd never suspect. Can't say that I'm sure about the emerging one though; kids are now being conditioned, in general, to be pussies in my opinion... to put it simply.
"For those who risk, life has a flavor the protected shall never enjoy"
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Last generation and this one seem to be more and more, "What can you do for me?"VinceAtReal4x4s wrote:I'm with you on that. I just finished watching the first episode and will likely own the DVD set later.
I wasn't alive then or even for Vietnam for that matter, but the same possibilities are set deep within many of a generation that you'd never suspect. Can't say that I'm sure about the emerging one though; kids are now being conditioned, in general, to be pussies in my opinion... to put it simply.
I feel so old saying, "Those kids today." But I really think it's true for many. BTW I'm not THAT old. Turn 40 next month.
1973 712M
I get the feeling many times that I have 'become' my father. Growing up I often promised myself I would never be like him, now, like another saying goes, the older I get, the smarter my parents become. I see the wisdom of his ways whenever I deal with life's little problems involving my own kids.
My view on the latest generation is they have no pride in the deed, only in the result, and it's no longer "Suck it up and move on", it's about "I'm going to blame SOMEONE and sue them".
My view on the latest generation is they have no pride in the deed, only in the result, and it's no longer "Suck it up and move on", it's about "I'm going to blame SOMEONE and sue them".
Mike Newton 1973 712M (sold)
I do not like this word "bomb." It is not a bomb. It is a device that is exploding. Jacques le Blanc
I do not like this word "bomb." It is not a bomb. It is a device that is exploding. Jacques le Blanc
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lindenengineering
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Interesting series of TV films these.
I have watched some of K Burns' work on the Civil War that I found very accurate and informative. I do however at this stage see this latest series as selective for American PBS armchair observers only. It is obviously understandable that the films would exhault 'ad maiorum Americanum glorium" but the Second World War was a more complex issue than that with alot of different countries involved in the conflict than just the United States alone. I am obviously interested to see just how much he introduces that fact into his later episodes if any.
It is a fact of life that Victors write the peace. I was born immediately after the Second World War which means I am nearly 60 years of age. My parents (both) my uncles (5), aunts (3), and my grandfathers who had fought in the Great War of 1914 /1918 all donned the King's inform to fight a common foe in 1939.
I can assure you all it is a very sobering experience to walk in the Commonwealth War graves cemetry at Al Alamein and see thousands of head stones depicting the names of not only British soldiers but those if Austrailian and Kiwi troops who fell at the tender age of 18,19 & 20.
As a school boy in the Fifties I learned that the Greeks were all good, and the Persians were all bad. It wasn't until I lived in Iran did I learn that wasn't so much the case. Simply the Greeks wrote all the surviving texts thanks to the works of preservation by the Arab Califate prior to the Renaissance. The same goes for many excellent latter day works; Indeed I have seen this played out in schools the in the USA where my elder children had no idea that Britain and the Commonwealth Countries were locked in conflict with the Axis powers several years before the USA was dragged into the war by the attack on Pearl Harbour . (A copy cat attack incidently of the Royal Navy Fleet Air arm attack on the Italian Navy at anchor in Taranto Harbour several years before!)
Being an interested admirer of Alexander the Great, I have to question the veracity of his many biographies . After all if you look at the most revered works by Arrian, Curtius, Diodorus, Justin, and Plutarch, you will discover they all lived around 300 years after Alexander's death in modern day Iraq. It leads me to contemplate what latter day historians might write in ad 2307 about our current Western Tradition. Even if it survives at all past 2107 at the rate we are going!
Dennis
.
I have watched some of K Burns' work on the Civil War that I found very accurate and informative. I do however at this stage see this latest series as selective for American PBS armchair observers only. It is obviously understandable that the films would exhault 'ad maiorum Americanum glorium" but the Second World War was a more complex issue than that with alot of different countries involved in the conflict than just the United States alone. I am obviously interested to see just how much he introduces that fact into his later episodes if any.
It is a fact of life that Victors write the peace. I was born immediately after the Second World War which means I am nearly 60 years of age. My parents (both) my uncles (5), aunts (3), and my grandfathers who had fought in the Great War of 1914 /1918 all donned the King's inform to fight a common foe in 1939.
I can assure you all it is a very sobering experience to walk in the Commonwealth War graves cemetry at Al Alamein and see thousands of head stones depicting the names of not only British soldiers but those if Austrailian and Kiwi troops who fell at the tender age of 18,19 & 20.
As a school boy in the Fifties I learned that the Greeks were all good, and the Persians were all bad. It wasn't until I lived in Iran did I learn that wasn't so much the case. Simply the Greeks wrote all the surviving texts thanks to the works of preservation by the Arab Califate prior to the Renaissance. The same goes for many excellent latter day works; Indeed I have seen this played out in schools the in the USA where my elder children had no idea that Britain and the Commonwealth Countries were locked in conflict with the Axis powers several years before the USA was dragged into the war by the attack on Pearl Harbour . (A copy cat attack incidently of the Royal Navy Fleet Air arm attack on the Italian Navy at anchor in Taranto Harbour several years before!)
Being an interested admirer of Alexander the Great, I have to question the veracity of his many biographies . After all if you look at the most revered works by Arrian, Curtius, Diodorus, Justin, and Plutarch, you will discover they all lived around 300 years after Alexander's death in modern day Iraq. It leads me to contemplate what latter day historians might write in ad 2307 about our current Western Tradition. Even if it survives at all past 2107 at the rate we are going!
Dennis
.
OOOps no customer bashing now
I believe the series is obviously meant to be an American perspective of the war, concentrating on 4 US cities and some of the soldiers from those cities. Looking at the soldiers experiences and those of the people "on the home front".
Obviously the citizens of Great Britain paid a horrible price, as well. It was even stated clearly by Burns that the American civilians where never in any real danger. I am sure the BBC could have created a compelling documentary on similar circumstances there.
I'm not sure how one could ever argue "who suffered more", or "who contributed more". I think I can say that GB had more to lose. I don't see how the Nazi's could have realistically invaded the US mainland. However, I think it's fairly likely without the US getting directly involved GB would have fallen eventually.
Obviously the citizens of Great Britain paid a horrible price, as well. It was even stated clearly by Burns that the American civilians where never in any real danger. I am sure the BBC could have created a compelling documentary on similar circumstances there.
I'm not sure how one could ever argue "who suffered more", or "who contributed more". I think I can say that GB had more to lose. I don't see how the Nazi's could have realistically invaded the US mainland. However, I think it's fairly likely without the US getting directly involved GB would have fallen eventually.
1973 712M
No WAR is good, nether the ones from the past nor the ones that are to come. There is always going to be 3 loosers. The one that started it, the one that is defending it and the civil population.
I am living only 10 miles away from where the "Battle of the bulge" was fought - a small village in the Belgian Ardennes called Bastogne. The US lost a bit more then 72,000 soldiers during that battle. Way far more then what they lost during the landing in Normandy and more then the entire WAR of Vietnam. Remember, it was only a battle. This figure does not include the loss on the German side and the loss among the civilians, not even counting the material loos.
Regards,
Jacques
P.S. When I was in the US I was always amazed how people where crying because the entire war of Vietnam took the lives of a bit over 50,000 soldiers whereas only 1 battle here in the Ardennes took a bit more then 72,000 US soldiers. At the end I came to only one possible conclusion: 1 life is allready a price to high to pay and in a war there is NO WINNER.
I am living only 10 miles away from where the "Battle of the bulge" was fought - a small village in the Belgian Ardennes called Bastogne. The US lost a bit more then 72,000 soldiers during that battle. Way far more then what they lost during the landing in Normandy and more then the entire WAR of Vietnam. Remember, it was only a battle. This figure does not include the loss on the German side and the loss among the civilians, not even counting the material loos.
Regards,
Jacques
P.S. When I was in the US I was always amazed how people where crying because the entire war of Vietnam took the lives of a bit over 50,000 soldiers whereas only 1 battle here in the Ardennes took a bit more then 72,000 US soldiers. At the end I came to only one possible conclusion: 1 life is allready a price to high to pay and in a war there is NO WINNER.
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lindenengineering
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Guys
I made a determined effort to watch the whole film presentation on my local PBS station in spite of interruptions by kids & wife!
In short I liked it, and is well worth watching if you missed it. I was happy to see that Ken Burns touched upon the obscure and human stories more than most of these documentaries tend to do. I also was impressed by his coverage of the theatres of the war that tend not to get mentioned too often due to monumental screw ups like the Voges campaign and OP Market Garden.
There was one interviewee that got my attention, a former airborne para (101st I believe, Nijmegen campaign.) Who said "I wouldn't want to do that again & I don't think I could even do that again". My late dad vet of the British 6th Airborne believe it or not said the same thing a few years ago when I asked him about his service in the same Nijmegan campaign & Operation Market Garden.
What strikes me I think and what amazes me is that so many people were involved in a united effort to rid the world of tirrany. This can be best summed up when my late dad came to Denver and promptly fell down the stairs and broke his neck. I callously quipped "Hey Dad looks like you had your last free fall" as he layed in a heap on the landing!
In the local Emergency room they had him stretched out with nothing on except an examination gown. This doctor was looking him over for scars.
"Oh I see key hole surgery here, old wound here & there then he spotted four round scars on his left groin area. "Oh what are these sir he asked?"
Being sedated, he mumbled "Spandau" "excuse me sir" responded the doctor. Again he uttered "Spandau" "Sorry Sir, I don't understand".
Then in a concerted effort he blurted out "Spandau bloody machine gun".
The doctor then retorts "oh you were in the war". Dad opened his right eye and said "we were all in the war everyone and that included every American as well, we were all united together".
Oh so they took you back to England to have those bullets removed did they, asked the doctor? "Going home" came the retort. "I was in the British Army"---- There was NO GOING HOME! "They got took out in a tent in the field"---- Doctor raised his eyebrows.
So the film gets two thumbs up from me, even if you don't like war films its very moving and a sobering series of episodes to see.
Dennis
I made a determined effort to watch the whole film presentation on my local PBS station in spite of interruptions by kids & wife!
In short I liked it, and is well worth watching if you missed it. I was happy to see that Ken Burns touched upon the obscure and human stories more than most of these documentaries tend to do. I also was impressed by his coverage of the theatres of the war that tend not to get mentioned too often due to monumental screw ups like the Voges campaign and OP Market Garden.
There was one interviewee that got my attention, a former airborne para (101st I believe, Nijmegen campaign.) Who said "I wouldn't want to do that again & I don't think I could even do that again". My late dad vet of the British 6th Airborne believe it or not said the same thing a few years ago when I asked him about his service in the same Nijmegan campaign & Operation Market Garden.
What strikes me I think and what amazes me is that so many people were involved in a united effort to rid the world of tirrany. This can be best summed up when my late dad came to Denver and promptly fell down the stairs and broke his neck. I callously quipped "Hey Dad looks like you had your last free fall" as he layed in a heap on the landing!
In the local Emergency room they had him stretched out with nothing on except an examination gown. This doctor was looking him over for scars.
"Oh I see key hole surgery here, old wound here & there then he spotted four round scars on his left groin area. "Oh what are these sir he asked?"
Being sedated, he mumbled "Spandau" "excuse me sir" responded the doctor. Again he uttered "Spandau" "Sorry Sir, I don't understand".
Then in a concerted effort he blurted out "Spandau bloody machine gun".
The doctor then retorts "oh you were in the war". Dad opened his right eye and said "we were all in the war everyone and that included every American as well, we were all united together".
Oh so they took you back to England to have those bullets removed did they, asked the doctor? "Going home" came the retort. "I was in the British Army"---- There was NO GOING HOME! "They got took out in a tent in the field"---- Doctor raised his eyebrows.
So the film gets two thumbs up from me, even if you don't like war films its very moving and a sobering series of episodes to see.
Dennis
OOOps no customer bashing now
I don't see how they got through it. I'm sure much of it is the not wanting to let your mates/buddies down or to be thought of as a coward.
Back in the early 90's the government in its infinite wisdom thought I could better serve in the Washington DC area. While I was there I went to Gettysburg and saw the places mentioned in all the history books. When I got to where Pickett's charge began and could look across and open field to the cemetary I had to wonder what caliber of man could march across that field while being fired it with canister and ball and then later small arms. Much better men than I suspect I would be.
Back in the early 90's the government in its infinite wisdom thought I could better serve in the Washington DC area. While I was there I went to Gettysburg and saw the places mentioned in all the history books. When I got to where Pickett's charge began and could look across and open field to the cemetary I had to wonder what caliber of man could march across that field while being fired it with canister and ball and then later small arms. Much better men than I suspect I would be.
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lindenengineering
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Andy
I have walked that battlefield myself too and drew a similar conclusion.
You know if something good ever came out of such conflicts it must be advances in medical procedures as it was then and is now. These ultimately bring good to mankind.
To illustrate I was in the 1980's involved a serious road accident in Egypt breaking bones in my neck. I ended up in a foundation hospital in Chester for an emminent "sawbones" to study my X rays.
The hospital was founded some 120 years previously with money donated by a wealthy Liverpool widow whose husband had a horse drawn transport business hauling goods out of the port and into the industrial north of England. It seems their dray drivers were often lamed by inoperable knee damage when the lynch pin broke holding the team of dray horses to the wagon.The dray man was then often violently dragged off the buck board, falling on his knees in the road.
In those days open surgery was inherently risky due to the onset of post operable gangerene. This was a huge problem for civil war combatants and many lost legs not due to their battle injuries but infection on the operating table.
This hospital had a museum section where the first successful open knee surgery was conducted recovering a shattered knee cap by spaying carbolic acid into the air. The surgeon involved incidently was seconded to supporting Union troops in his younger years in the field hospitals in these United States. A series of photographs are shown on the museum wall with Union patients shaking hands with this young surgeon. Obviously his experiences in that awful conflict led at least to some good. Today knee surgery is commonplace, an outpatient activity in most cases.
Cheers Dennis
I have walked that battlefield myself too and drew a similar conclusion.
You know if something good ever came out of such conflicts it must be advances in medical procedures as it was then and is now. These ultimately bring good to mankind.
To illustrate I was in the 1980's involved a serious road accident in Egypt breaking bones in my neck. I ended up in a foundation hospital in Chester for an emminent "sawbones" to study my X rays.
The hospital was founded some 120 years previously with money donated by a wealthy Liverpool widow whose husband had a horse drawn transport business hauling goods out of the port and into the industrial north of England. It seems their dray drivers were often lamed by inoperable knee damage when the lynch pin broke holding the team of dray horses to the wagon.The dray man was then often violently dragged off the buck board, falling on his knees in the road.
In those days open surgery was inherently risky due to the onset of post operable gangerene. This was a huge problem for civil war combatants and many lost legs not due to their battle injuries but infection on the operating table.
This hospital had a museum section where the first successful open knee surgery was conducted recovering a shattered knee cap by spaying carbolic acid into the air. The surgeon involved incidently was seconded to supporting Union troops in his younger years in the field hospitals in these United States. A series of photographs are shown on the museum wall with Union patients shaking hands with this young surgeon. Obviously his experiences in that awful conflict led at least to some good. Today knee surgery is commonplace, an outpatient activity in most cases.
Cheers Dennis
OOOps no customer bashing now
It seems like the Williams clan has a propensity to break their necks. Good thing for you the doctors in your Dad's tent were able to prevent any permanent damage from the Spandau or you might not be here and good for us here on the forum that both sets fo doctors were able to fix the broken necks so that we, here on the forum, can benefit from your knowledge.
What I had meant to add on the earlier post about Gettysburg and some of the WW II things was: "There's was not to question why...." And they did, in droves, and we are here to reap the benefits of their selflessness.
What I had meant to add on the earlier post about Gettysburg and some of the WW II things was: "There's was not to question why...." And they did, in droves, and we are here to reap the benefits of their selflessness.
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lindenengineering
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I missed a few episodes, trying to get caught up.
Amazing, heroic, people...all of them. Every time I see a WWII vet, I always do my best to shake their hand and say thanks. When you see these now (mostly) frail, elderly folk, it's so hard to imagine what they accomplished and how they did it. I know no film could ever match the feeling the felt and sights they saw. God bless them all.
Amazing, heroic, people...all of them. Every time I see a WWII vet, I always do my best to shake their hand and say thanks. When you see these now (mostly) frail, elderly folk, it's so hard to imagine what they accomplished and how they did it. I know no film could ever match the feeling the felt and sights they saw. God bless them all.
1973 712M
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lindenengineering
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Todd
I most certainly agree!
Up to about four years ago we used to fix alot of WW2 vets cars for 10% over cost on parts and labour at cost. We don't see 'em these days they have all gone or just too frail to drive for the mostpart.
Two fellas stand out in my mind one a Joe Simmonds who was a 24 year old Captain at Omaha Beach and badly mauled by Bouncing Betties. When he died last year I went to his funeral and discreetly sat at the back of the chapel only to be called up to the front to make a eulogy speech about their deceased family member. In front of about 350 people from Iowa & Nebraska, most of them complete strangers I mentioned amongst oher things what a great guy I thought he was!
The other old bloke Harry, was a member of the VFW in Koiwa. A gangly old character with a straw hat. Looking for a battery for his car we got into a conversation about his service in the Far East. Suddenly he chirped up "In my day we fought Japs now for crying out loud we are fight'n Muslims"!
I fell over laughing with his demenour. Once I had found him a good used battery at his insistence and stuffed in in his Taurus he asked me how much?
Nothing I replied
You don't owe us now't mate---We owe you.
Well he then said you are a Britisher arn't yah and famous for warm beer! The best beer I ever tasted. He went on; Having been a prisoner of war we got relieved and put on an American warship as deck cargo. For several days off Tricomalee we baked in the sun on the open decks. Thirsty we spotted this British frigate sailing close by. As it passed by us the skipper ordered the ratings to throw cases of beer onto our decks. There wasn't supposed to be booze on American men o war but those two bottle I got were the best beer I ever tasted. He said.
Old soldiers never die they just fade way.
Dennis
I most certainly agree!
Up to about four years ago we used to fix alot of WW2 vets cars for 10% over cost on parts and labour at cost. We don't see 'em these days they have all gone or just too frail to drive for the mostpart.
Two fellas stand out in my mind one a Joe Simmonds who was a 24 year old Captain at Omaha Beach and badly mauled by Bouncing Betties. When he died last year I went to his funeral and discreetly sat at the back of the chapel only to be called up to the front to make a eulogy speech about their deceased family member. In front of about 350 people from Iowa & Nebraska, most of them complete strangers I mentioned amongst oher things what a great guy I thought he was!
The other old bloke Harry, was a member of the VFW in Koiwa. A gangly old character with a straw hat. Looking for a battery for his car we got into a conversation about his service in the Far East. Suddenly he chirped up "In my day we fought Japs now for crying out loud we are fight'n Muslims"!
I fell over laughing with his demenour. Once I had found him a good used battery at his insistence and stuffed in in his Taurus he asked me how much?
Nothing I replied
You don't owe us now't mate---We owe you.
Well he then said you are a Britisher arn't yah and famous for warm beer! The best beer I ever tasted. He went on; Having been a prisoner of war we got relieved and put on an American warship as deck cargo. For several days off Tricomalee we baked in the sun on the open decks. Thirsty we spotted this British frigate sailing close by. As it passed by us the skipper ordered the ratings to throw cases of beer onto our decks. There wasn't supposed to be booze on American men o war but those two bottle I got were the best beer I ever tasted. He said.
Old soldiers never die they just fade way.
Dennis
OOOps no customer bashing now
Dennis, to what hospital in Chester do you refer? The most famous Othopaedic Hospital in the area is the
The Robert Jones and Agnes Hunt Orthopaedic and District Hospital, Gobowen Oswestry Shropshire.
The Robert Jones and Agnes Hunt Orthopaedic and District Hospital, Gobowen Oswestry Shropshire.
lindenengineering wrote:Andy
I have walked that battlefield myself too and drew a similar conclusion.
You know if something good ever came out of such conflicts it must be advances in medical procedures as it was then and is now. These ultimately bring good to mankind.
To illustrate I was in the 1980's involved a serious road accident in Egypt breaking bones in my neck. I ended up in a foundation hospital in Chester for an emminent "sawbones" to study my X rays.
The hospital was founded some 120 years previously with money donated by a wealthy Liverpool widow whose husband had a horse drawn transport business hauling goods out of the port and into the industrial north of England. It seems their dray drivers were often lamed by inoperable knee damage when the lynch pin broke holding the team of dray horses to the wagon.The dray man was then often violently dragged off the buck board, falling on his knees in the road.
In those days open surgery was inherently risky due to the onset of post operable gangerene. This was a huge problem for civil war combatants and many lost legs not due to their battle injuries but infection on the operating table.
This hospital had a museum section where the first successful open knee surgery was conducted recovering a shattered knee cap by spaying carbolic acid into the air. The surgeon involved incidently was seconded to supporting Union troops in his younger years in the field hospitals in these United States. A series of photographs are shown on the museum wall with Union patients shaking hands with this young surgeon. Obviously his experiences in that awful conflict led at least to some good. Today knee surgery is commonplace, an outpatient activity in most cases.
Cheers Dennis
Anthony
GB
GB